I think Samwise and Hellmute love Minions. It has given them something to analize and criticize. I think they seem to be enjoying the whole debate. Remember Hergmir, everyone can enjoy Dungeons and Dragons in thier own way. I think it's wonderful they can get so much enjoyment out of the concept without having to even play. My cousin hasn't played DnD in 20years, But he has a lot of the 3e books and Knows the lore inside and out, he's not to good on the mechanics though.(In no way am I assuming Samwise and Hellmute do not really play, just stating people can enjoy Dungeons and Dragons with out playing.)
I don't really intend to play 4th edition, but want to know what the game I loved has devolved into.
As for the "minion love"...see my sig.
If only other people on this forum could take opinoins and discussion in your light that people like discussing and tearing these things apart, there would be no need for ideas such as anti or pro-4e.
Discuss it for discussions sake and the love of the game. Dont' close your mind to other opinions. (Even when those opinions are obviously wrong. )
My post contains a little bit of everything: A humorous story relating to the topic at hand, a useful analogy created by one of my players, and perhaps some insight into the ongoing discussion (yes, I did read every post in this whole thread).
First, in regards to how to treat minions as a DM, minion special properties lead to a very funny story in a campaign I cooked up for my players (yes, I have the books, didn't realize my store was breaking streetdate). As an introduction, it is important to know that sometimes I overload encounters on my PCs in situations where running away is a tactically sound option or would make sense. So the characters have infiltrated a keep, but have alerted the guards and one of them clearly went to warn the rest of the keep. Anyway, this scene roughly came up in combat:
DM:"You have been fighting the hobgoblin guards for several minutes. With a clatter, a squadron of predatory-looking hobgoblins rounds the corner, and rushes the party!" Fighter:"I shift away from the hobgoblin I'm fighting to use reaping strike on the closest new foe- even if my main swing does not hit him, perhaps a followup will deal him a meager wound!" *rolling, miss* DM:"The hobgoblin dodges your large sword sweep. When you adjust to deliver a quick blow, he grabs your sword by the blade, and laughing throws your sword's weight back in your face!" Fighter:"Hey guys, I think we might be a little outnumbered here! I don't know about you, but I'm not fighting the entire elite hobgoblin guard!" *party runs away*
In this situation, they were fighting an encounter a little below their level, and I just added the last 'enemy' of four minions. However, because the minions hit and defenses are the same as normal foes, plus the can't take miss damage, they actually appeared in this situation to be the strength of elites, because they players couldn't tell if their casual ignoring of the miss damage was because of a minion ability or ridiculous HP. After they ran away, I told the players about it and we had a good laugh. The way the fighter (player) put it: "It's like fighting gorillas where the body has been replaced with sock monkey- you have to get past the business end to see just how tiny they are."
How this relates to the debate raging on:
I preface this with a question: to those who are waiting for the corebooks, esp. Hellmute: you say we are throwing things back and forth until we can read the books, and you are (premise 1)less likely to believe anyone til that time, but you also say (premise 2) that no one can prove if they have the books or not. If (premise 3) you're not going to play 4e, I assume (conclusion from premise 3) you're not getting the books. Therefore, (conclusion from premises 1, 2, and the first conclusion) you can never know what's in them, and thus no one can ever prove something in the books to your satisfaction. Is this true?
To the xp debate itself. I don't know how much of the books I'm allowed to quote on the boards, especially before street, so I'll obfuscate and paraphrase. But there are several anecdotes, and actually an entire paragraph in the DMG that talks about using monsters within the XP budget that are not challenge appropriate. Specifically, that a single [N]th level standard monster fits the XP budget of a [N-9]th level party, but because the attacks and defenses do not scale, this is not an appropriate challenge and is what solos were created for. If XP cannot do this for standard monsters, it obviously cannot for minions.
N is named in the book, again trying to obfuscate.
Ops or whomever is in control of this, feel free to delete some or all of this if it is too much information.
To the xp debate itself. I don't know how much of the books I'm allowed to quote on the boards, especially before street, so I'll obfuscate and paraphrase. But there are several anecdotes, and actually an entire paragraph in the DMG that talks about using monsters within the XP budget that are not challenge appropriate. Specifically, that a single [N]th level standard monster fits the XP budget of a [N-9]th level party, but because the attacks and defenses do not scale, this is not an appropriate challenge and is what solos were created for. If XP cannot do this for standard monsters, it obviously cannot for minions.
N is named in the book, again trying to obfuscate.
That sounds like my example earlier:
2. Next, XP is not merely a power equivalent, or a 1st level 5 PC party could take on 1 10th level monster. We have stats for Chuul, and with 2 attacks per round, paralysis, and reach 2, I would expect TPK. Apparently a 10th level monster is overpowered for a 1st level party even though by XP alone it is selectable. It should be equivalent to a 1st level solo monster, but is not. Thus XP is not simply a power equivalent.
And that's not the first time I've presented something that later has turned out to be in the manual. I guess I've psychically read the DMG already.
~~~ I preface this with a question: to those who are waiting for the corebooks, esp. Hellmute:~~~
Conclusion Omega: My public library does not require the purchase of a book to read it or check it out. So once avilable I will be able to see what is in them without purchasing a thing. Heck I could even photocopy pages from it for research purposes! IE: not full page art pages, or table of contents, but some of them to review at my leisure for the purpose of discussing the material within or diseeciton of it.
But that would mean me spending money on 4th edition, which is not very likely to happen.
So I would be able to validate/verify information AFTER the actual release of the books. Now to go back and read the remaing paragraphs of your posts and those after it.
First, in regards to how to treat minions as a DM, minion special properties lead to a very funny story in a campaign I cooked up for my players (yes, I have the books, didn't realize my store was breaking streetdate). As an introduction, it is important to know that sometimes I overload encounters on my PCs in situations where running away is a tactically sound option or would make sense. So the characters have infiltrated a keep, but have alerted the guards and one of them clearly went to warn the rest of the keep. Anyway, this scene roughly came up in combat:
DM:"You have been fighting the hobgoblin guards for several minutes. With a clatter, a squadron of predatory-looking hobgoblins rounds the corner, and rushes the party!" Fighter:"I shift away from the hobgoblin I'm fighting to use reaping strike on the closest new foe- even if my main swing does not hit him, perhaps a followup will deal him a meager wound!" *rolling, miss* DM:"The hobgoblin dodges your large sword sweep. When you adjust to deliver a quick blow, he grabs your sword by the blade, and laughing throws your sword's weight back in your face!" Fighter:"Hey guys, I think we might be a little outnumbered here! I don't know about you, but I'm not fighting the entire elite hobgoblin guard!" *party runs away*
In this situation, they were fighting an encounter a little below their level, and I just added the last 'enemy' of four minions. However, because the minions hit and defenses are the same as normal foes, plus the can't take miss damage, they actually appeared in this situation to be the strength of elites, because they players couldn't tell if their casual ignoring of the miss damage was because of a minion ability or ridiculous HP. After they ran away, I told the players about it and we had a good laugh. The way the fighter (player) put it: "It's like fighting gorillas where the body has been replaced with sock monkey- you have to get past the business end to see just how tiny they are."
I am making nothing up. If you would like off-topic posts of WotC people saying they wanted to
Samwise wrote:
remove design traps from the game and make it possible for anyone to play the game right away, all you need to do is look in the Concerns and Criticisms archives for multiple links to such.
And they did not say they removed any and all ability to break the system. In fact, they openly admit that the game is designed to function along certain set parameters, which you are ignoring when you try and remove level from the encounter design mechanic.
Samwise wrote:
Is that what is says? Just pick monsters by level? So an elite 2nd level monster is the same as a standard 2nd level monster in a 1st level encounter?
Please refer to what Alyri quoted from the 4E DMG, since he actually has it.
Alyri wrote:
And From the Dmg Chapter 4 Building Encounters Page 56. Encounter Components There is a table called Step by Step Encounters. 1. Choose an Encounter Level: encounter level is relative to # of Pcs. easy is 1-2 levels lower standard is equal to party level or one higher hard is two to four levels higher 2. Determine XP Budget:.... 3. Spend your XP Budget:... Considerations: Levels of Individual threats: choose threats within 2-3 lvls, easy threat is 2-4 lvls lower, hard threat is 3-5 lvls higher Mix Roles: use the roles Brute Soldier etc.
Lets start at 1. This shows that the level of the encounter is directly tied to the level of the PC's. Notice that a standard encounter is of equal level to the party or only 1 level higher. Since we have already been told that 1 regular monster is considered a proper challenge for a single PC of the same level, this is nothing new. This also incorporates the "monster slot" concept, with 1 regular monster per PC, with elites filling 2 slots and solos filling 4. You do not seem to have any problem with this part.
Now for #2. XP, as per the rewards exerpt:
Characters gain experience points (XP) for every encounter they complete. They gain action points when they reach milestones, generally after every two encounters. They gain treasure as they complete encounters—not after every encounter, but sporadically over the course of an adventure. They gain a level after completing eight to ten encounters (including quests).
We can therefore infer that the XP value of the monster is solely a measure of it's level - for a standard monster that means 1/10th that required to move a single PC to the next level. Please note it states 8-10 encounters - they are not forcing you in to a specific value at any given point, simply a range.
Now for 3. Your correct, it states to spend your XP Budget. What does that mean? It tells you. You select monsters based on certain parameters. Again:
Levels of Individual threats: choose threats within 2-3 lvls, easy threat is 2-4 lvls lower, hard threat is 3-5 lvls higher Mix Roles: use the roles Brute Soldier etc.
What does that mean? The average level of the monsters should fall within that range, and should not stray too far from that range. An ideal encounter would have a number of regular monsters of the same level of the party, 1 for each PC. To add more variety, the designers added roles to the monsters, elites are worth 2 regular monsters, solo's are worth 5. And by giving you the XP values, you now know roughly how big of an encounter to build, while keeping within that range.
As an example:
5 PCs all at 7th level. The encounter would ideally worth 8-10% of 15000XP(1200-1500XP). An average encounter would be of this level. If the DM wanted an easier encounter, he would set a lower budget, a harder one, a higher budget. And he would also scale the monsters appropriately to do so.
Now, assuming an average encounter, the DM has to pick monsters. The level of the monsters should fall within the range of the weight of the encounter. Again, easy encounter - few levels lower, hard - a few levels higher. so for an average encounter we'll say we want +/- 1 level for now.
Looking at the XP chart we can have 2 level 6 standard monsters and a level 8 elite and have a reasonably balanced encounter with the proper amount of XP for that level.
From those excerpts, yes it does. The level of the encounter is set by how much xp is in the encounter.
Again, I refer you to what Alyri was kind enough to post from the 4E DMG
1. Choose an Encounter Level: encounter level is relative to # of Pcs. easy is 1-2 levels lower standard is equal to party level or one higher hard is two to four levels higher
This is the first thing the DMG tells you to do when building an encounter. XP is then derived from this.
Now, as for minions, they are an abstraction for the DM to use to represent a specific cinematic trope of the henchman/mook/lowlife follower.
From the Minions excerpt:
When you use minions, you should use those of a level appropriate to the encounter you’re building. The concept of minions is to provide fun filler for encounters, not to provide a way for a 1st level character to gain 1,000+ XP for defeating a 23rd-level abyssal ghoul minion by rolling a natural 20. Minions are a rules abstraction, and one of the many tools a DM has to build exciting encounters
Minions are designed to be functional only within a specific range of encounters and as support to the encounter, the the entirety of the encounter. The are a minion, not a solo and are not designed to be. Solos have additonal attacks and abilities to counter the fact that they will be going up against a group of PC's. If you want a lower level solo, you customize a higher level solo and restat it for a lower level. The DMG and MM will have rules for this, as per the 4E customization excerpt.
You do realize that posting actual facts in this thread is pointless anyway right?
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Conclusion Omega: My public library does not require the purchase of a book to read it or check it out. So once avilable I will be able to see what is in them without purchasing a thing. Heck I could even photocopy pages from it for research purposes! IE: not full page art pages, or table of contents, but some of them to review at my leisure for the purpose of discussing the material within or diseeciton of it.
But that would mean me spending money on 4th edition, which is not very likely to happen.
So I would be able to validate/verify information AFTER the actual release of the books. Now to go back and read the remaing paragraphs of your posts and those after it.
Your library has game books? My library can't even stock all of Alan Dean Foster's books, has only 1 copy of the books in the Song of Ice and fire series, and doesn't have anything that even approaches game book territory. Otherwise I would have had a good look at Shadowrun by now.
IE: not full page art pages, or table of contents, but some of them to review at my leisure for the purpose of discussing the material within or diseeciton of it. 
