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Derren S. wrote:

Ragel is an idiot.

I think I might quote that statement and my above post. :D

Holy_Beholder wrote:

Lets say it does 6d6 fire, 1d6 magic, and 3d6 pressure, for 10 damage dice, which works well for a percentage. Average damage for 4d6 is 14. Now lets say this dragon is massive, and does 25d6 total damage, including the ineffective fire. On average 35 damage will be done. That might kill the elemental. However for the purpose of simplicity this is merged together and the elemental is just given fire resistance instead of fire immunity.

Unfortunately, you then have to come up with an entirely new explanation why lava that does 20d6 fire damage (ie. no magic or pressure damage), also hurts the fire elemental.

If the entire point of removing fire immunity from fire elementals is so that dragon breath specifically can hurt them, then why not just give dragon breath an additional non-fire energy type instead?

calvin-N-hobbes wrote:

Unfortunately, you then have to come up with an entirely new explanation why lava that does 20d6 fire damage (ie. no magic or pressure damage), also hurts the fire elemental.

Because the lava is many times hotter than the fire elemental? It does 20d6 per round, and the fire elemental only does 1d6. It's subsumed by the heat of the lava.

Round and round we go.

Holy_Beholder wrote:

It makes more sense than fire hurting fire elementals. As for lava, it might cool and seperate the fire elemental into parts trapped under the cooled rock, or the lava would move around and pull the fire away(again, sort of like pressure), and there are tons of ways that this would happen. As for a fireball, it could cut off fuel, although the argument for it is a lot weaker.

Oh, I agree is makes more sense than fire hurting fire elementals. That was never my point. My point simple is that if dragon fire (or any other kind of magical or supernatural fire) is composed of more than just fire, then why not list that and keep the fire immunity for fire elementals. As for lava, why would it cool when it comes in contact with a fire elemental? Sounds like you are just reaching for anything here. But regardless, even cooled lava gives off intense heat which would feed to fire elemental. Also, increasing pressure actually increases temperature (PV=nRT if you insists on trying to use science to justify your logic). Moreover, you are talking about trapping the elemental, not hurting it.

Stogoe]Because the lava is many times hotter than the fire elemental? It does 20d6 per round, and the fire elemental only does 1d6. It's subsumed by the heat of the lava.

Round and round we go.

Really? Could you please quote your source for the official listed temperature of a fire elemental? Moreover, lava does 20d6 if immersed, but 2d6 if exposed, which is well within the range of 1d4-2d8 of fire damage done by a fire elemental attack indicating if anything that fire elementals can be hotter than lava. There are no actual rules for being immersed within a fire elemental, so I will not make any unsubstantiated claims otherwise. As an aside, I detest how elementals are statted in 3.5 as well. Horrible flavor and/or consistency.
Yep, round and round we go. Perhaps if you provided more insight and fewer insults the discussion would be moving forward.

Because the lava is many times hotter than the fire elemental? It does 20d6 per round, and the fire elemental only does 1d6. It's subsumed by the heat of the lava.

Round and round we go.[/quote]
Really? Could you please quote your source for the official listed temperature of a fire elemental? Moreover, lava does 20d6 if immersed, but 2d6 if exposed, which is well within the range of 1d4-2d8 of fire damage done by a fire elemental attack indicating if anything that fire elementals can be hotter than lava. There are no actual rules for being immersed within a fire elemental, so I will not make any unsubstantiated claims otherwise. As an aside, I detest how elementals are statted in 3.5 as well. Horrible flavor and/or consistency.
Yep, round and round we go. Perhaps if you provided more insight and fewer insults the discussion would be moving forward.

G-pa]Some spirit animates the primal fire and holds it together wrote:

Some spirit animates the primal fire and holds it together; I'm not making that up, it's what's "stolen and imprisoned" to make a new Fire Archon.
Fire dissipates. So maybe the elemental spirit can hold its fire-body together from temperatures x up to y, but after that temperature, the fire body gets too hot for the animating spirit to hold together and starts "boiling away." Makes sense to me. Maybe there are more powerful "Elder" elemental spirits that can go hotter (have higher fire resistance).

Similarly, ice "locks up" into immobility. Some spirit animates the primal ice and gives it mobility. So maybe the elemental spirit can "free" its ice-body from temperatures y down to x, but below that, the ice gets too cold for the animating spirit to flex it and starts "locking up and crumbling away."

Keep in mind that Fire Archons are not the same as Fire Elementals.

As I have stated before, I have no problem with certain creatures like the new fire archon, or fire giants, salamanders, etc., which have some kind of supposed physical form not being immune to fire. But I am talking about the classic fire elemental. A creature of pure flame. A creature like that should be immune to fire, dragon or otherwise.