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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 4:29AM
#1
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In what hypothetical situations does a Greatsword actually outdamage a Greataxe over the long-term?
I came up with the following, which is a pretty poor showing:
Hitting on 20 with a Greataxe, 19-20 with a Greatsword, using a power that does 2[W] (or more) at Heroic Tier:
Greataxe- 24 (crit) + 6.5 (high crit) = 30.5
Greatsword- 20 (crit) + 11 (1 hit) = 31
Maul- 24 (crit)= 24
If you hit on a 19-20 with the Greataxe and 18-20 with the Greatsword the Greataxe starts to do more damage again.
Greataxe- 24 (crit) + 6.5 (high crit) + 13 (1 hit )= 43.5
Greatsword- 20 (crit) + 22 (2 hits) = 42
Maul- 24 (crit) + 14 (hit)= 38
The Maul catches up and beats the Greataxe at around 10+ to hit. The Greatsword seems overshadowed by bother for most of its career.
Making a Greatsword d12 makes it outdamage a Greataxe more often than not (+1 to hit is equivalent to high crit with a 1[W] power at Heroic, equivalent to high crit with a 2[W] power at Paragon and equivalent with a 3[W] power at Epic- at a lower x[W] Greataxes do better. At a higher Greatswords do better.)
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 4:34AM
#2
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The Greatswords advantage comes from the OA enhancing feats of Blade Opportunist and Heavy Blade Opportunity.
Heavy Blades have a distinct advantage over other weapon types when making OAs.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 5:06AM
#3
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Also, there are minions.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 3:48PM
#4
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So Heavy Blades by their nature get one damage dice less than Axes or Hammers?
I can kind of see the justification for that... But Heavy Blade powers don't really seem that much better than Hammer or Axe powers. The main difference is Axes concentrate on a single target, Heavy Blades on multiple enemies.
As for Opportunity Attacks- is being able to use a power instead of a Basic Melee really worth so much more than High Crit or the Hammer momentum feat?
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 4:29PM
#5
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So Heavy Blades by their nature get one damage dice less than Axes or Hammers?
I can kind of see the justification for that... But Heavy Blade powers don't really seem that much better than Hammer or Axe powers. The main difference is Axes concentrate on a single target, Heavy Blades on multiple enemies.
As for Opportunity Attacks- is being able to use a power instead of a Basic Melee really worth so much more than High Crit or the Hammer momentum feat?
Well, I can't say much on the Fighter side but the Paladin's strikes certainly seem worth it. Bolstering can net you a few temp hps. Enfeebling reduces your opponents to hit by 2 and stacks, IIRC, with Divine challenge for a possible reduction of 4. Holy Strike with a Holy Avenger weapon deals 2[w]+1d10+Str+5/6 which is not shabby at all for an OA, and if they're marked you also get to add Wis to that. If you're surrounded Valiant Strike is extremely accurate.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 4:31PM
#6
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So Heavy Blades by their nature get one damage dice less than Axes or Hammers?
I can kind of see the justification for that... But Heavy Blade powers don't really seem that much better than Hammer or Axe powers. The main difference is Axes concentrate on a single target, Heavy Blades on multiple enemies.
As for Opportunity Attacks- is being able to use a power instead of a Basic Melee really worth so much more than High Crit or the Hammer momentum feat?
No, it isn't. Outside of Glaives, Scimitars on a ranger, and bastard swords wielded one handed, heavy blades are always weaker than hammers, and lag a bit behind axes.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2008 - 4:46PM
#7
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They arn't always weaker, you just have to be doing enough extra damage or effect in order to make the +3 proficiency bonus matter more than the higher damage and high crit of the other weapons. With a big enough bonus on the damage(+12 in heroic, +18 in paragon, +24 in epic) The balance shifts to: Falchion>Greatsword>Greataxe>Maul. Greataxe and maul are only strictly better when your bonus damage is less than those values.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 12, 2008 - 12:34AM
#8
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Be a little bit careful throwing around the increase in high crit with tier. Don't forget that (1) basic attacks go up to 2W at epic and (2) encounter and daily weapon abilities can easily deal 3W or more in the higher tiers. This dilutes the relative value of the crit bonus.
So how much is +1 attack really worth? Let's ignore the secondary effects that trigger on a hit, and just consider damage.
Let the greataxe have hA/20 chance to hit and deal dA mean damage (non-critical) and cA mean damage on a critical. Let the greatsword have hS /20 chance to hit and deal dS mean damage (non-critical) and cS mean damage on a critical.
eA = (hA-1)/20 * dA + cA/20
eS = (hS-1)/20 * dS + cS/20
If we say that hS = hA+1, and ask when eA = eS then we get:
> (hA-1)/20 * dA + cA/20 = hA/20 * dS + cS/20
> (hA-1)*dA + cA = hA*dS + cS
Now, let's assume that the bonus damage for each weapon is the same (K), and that we're talking basic attacks at the heroic tier.
dA = 6.5 + K; cA = 12 + K + 6.5 = 18.5 + K
dS = 5.5 + K; cS = 10 + K
> (hA-1)*(6.5+K) + 18.5+K = hA*(5.5 + K) + 10+K
> hA(6.5 + K - 5.5 - K) - (6.5 + K) + 8.5 = 0
> hA + 2 - K = 0
> K = hA + 2
That's the break-even point (for a 1W attack). If you are doing fixed damage that is equal to your chance to hit out of 20 (for the greataxe) + 2, then the greatsword and greataxe do the same mean damage per attack.
Example: at great-axe to-hit of 10 (hit = 11/20), if we do +13 bonus damage:
eA = (10*19.5 + 31.5)/20 = 226.5/20 = 11.325
eS = (11*18.5 + 23)/20 = 226.5/20 = 11.325
The harder it is to hit, the less bonus damage we need. At a to-hit of 15 (hit = 6/20), we only need +8 bonus damage before the greatsword is equal. At a to-hit of 5 (hit = 16/20), we need a massive +18.
Most melee specialists will have +4 or +5 damage from Str alone. We only need to pick up +3 from feats, magic or other bonuses for the greatsword to equal the greataxe in damage. And that is ignoring any secondary benefits that trigger on a hit.
What about encounter or daily powers, which deal 2W or 3W (more at paragon or epic)? Consider 2W:
dA = 13 + K; cA = 24 + K + 6.5 = 30.5 + K
dS = 11 + K; cS = 20 + K
> (hA-1)*(13+K) + 30.5+K = hA*(11 + K) + 20+K
> hA(13 + K - 11 - K) - (13 + K) + 10.5 = 0
> 2*hA - 2.5 - K = 0
> K = 2*hA - 2.5
This favours the greataxe more for easy shots (high hA) and the greatsword more for difficult shots (low hA). With 5 bonus damage, they are equivalent when the hit chance is 3.75/20. The greatsword is better if you need 18+ with the axe, and worse if you need 17 or less. Again, increasing the bonus moves the equation in favour of the greatsword.
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