Song of Celerity is tremendously overpowered as an encounter stance.
I changed the stance's effect to the following: While this stance is in effect, you take a -2 penalty to AC and you may shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum of 1) before and after taking a standard action.
I think the -2 penalty to AC balances it a little better and the other encounter stances include a similar penalty.
Song of Fury is a solid multiattack power, and therefore quite strong. Certainly there are other powers out there of equal strength, but it's quite strong - particularly because it kicks in on a build that hasn't had to do anything to earn its multiattck powers (dual wield, etc).
Compare to the Kensei 20th level power Weaponsoul Dance: It provides 3 attacks, knocks each target prone, and immobilizes. It allows the Kensei to shift 5 squares between each attack and each attack gets a bonus to hit (Str vs. AC, Str +2 vs. AC, then Str +3 vs. AC). The first attack does 3[W] + Str, the second 2[W] + Str, and the third does 1[W] + Str.
So on average, the powers do the same damage. True the Kensei power doesn't do half damage on a miss, but each attack has a better chance to hit and each hit does 2 status effects. The Kensei also has not had to "do anything to earn its multiattack power". I don't think the Song of Fury is any more overpowered than this power and is indeed quite similar.
the feat is essentially just a buff to Eladrin swordmages (just like hide armor, but +1 ref and no armor penalty). It is connected to the PP only by fluff. Honestly, given all of the Swordmage/Eladrin teleport love out there already, I don't see that they need the help.
For starters, I think this feat would benefit nearly any Eladrin character. It would certainly benefit Wizards, Bards, Rogues, and Archery focused Rangers who found themselves in melee. Of course it also benefits Swordmages, but I don't think it should be broken. I like that it is another route to go that offers an alternative to taking the Hide Armor proficiency.
I changed the stance's effect to the following: While this stance is in effect, you take a -2 penalty to AC and you may shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum of 1) before and after taking a standard action.
I think the -2 penalty to AC balances it a little better and the other encounter stances include a similar penalty.
I still think this is more powerful than it ought to be. I'd feel better about it if it were before *or* after.
dedonas wrote:
Compare to the Kensei 20th level power Weaponsoul Dance: It provides 3 attacks, knocks each target prone, and immobilizes. It allows the Kensei to shift 5 squares between each attack and each attack gets a bonus to hit (Str vs. AC, Str +2 vs. AC, then Str +3 vs. AC). The first attack does 3[W] + Str, the second 2[W] + Str, and the third does 1[W] + Str.
So on average, the powers do the same damage. True the Kensei power doesn't do half damage on a miss, but each attack has a better chance to hit and each hit does 2 status effects. The Kensei also has not had to "do anything to earn its multiattack power". I don't think the Song of Fury is any more overpowered than this power and is indeed quite similar.
Indeed. I did not say it was overpowered. I said that it was quite strong, as part of a general argument that the powers that you have chosen are *all* quite strong. Notice that most PPs have a mix of weak and strong powers and features. The PPs that get good features usually wind up with one or two moderately pathetic powers, and vice versa. If you make your features in tune with the PPs that have good features, and then balance each of the powers against really good powers, you're going to wind up with a PP that's significantly more powerful than the other PPs out there.
Also, I will note something. Bladesinger was a munchkin kit from the very beginning back in 2.0. It was far more powerful than it had any right to be. If you were a fan of it then, and you are trying to recreate it now, your natural instinct is going to be to reach for that feeling of "I'm just a little bit better than everyone else" - it's the elf thing, you know? If you want to design a PP that is actually balanced with the other PPs out there, you need to be aware of this tendency within yourself and seek to control it.
Another way of thinking - don't come to it as a player who wants to play this PP. Going into PP design with that attitude will have you grinding out something that's mildly overpowered every time. This is a human nature thing. Come to it as a DM who's rying to construct a world. You want bladesinger to be in the world, because that's an important part of Eladrin culture. You very much want to avoid having it be overpowered - because if one of your players starts playing this PP and outshines all of the other players because of it, there's going to be some resentment in the ranks - particularly with the fact that this is a racial PP, and the Eladrin have that whole superiority complex thing going on.
There are some PPs out there that are generally better, and some that are worse. There are the top-tier ones that get used all the time by optimization fiends (often out of Dragon Magazine), and the second-tier ones that are still quite solid but not as good, and then a long tail of increasingly worse options, including quite a few that will probably only be played as challenge characters or for fluff reasons. You should probably aim for second-tier - a PP that people can choose and enjoy, but one that, when chosen, is chosen at least partially for fluff because the real hard-core optimizers see something else that's just a little bit shinier. Aim for low second-tier, to try to counteract your natural tendency to want to make it cooler. That way, when you overshoot (and you will) you'll probably wind up somewhere around high second-tier, which is where PPs like this *should* be.
dedonas wrote:
For starters, I think this feat would benefit nearly any Eladrin character. It would certainly benefit Wizards, Bards, Rogues, and Archery focused Rangers who found themselves in melee. Of course it also benefits Swordmages, but I don't think it should be broken. I like that it is another route to go that offers an alternative to taking the Hide Armor proficiency.
Wizards? They'd have to take arcane implement proficiency in the light or heavy blade and then give up both dual implement caster benefits and their mastery. I suppose it might be useful to wizards of the Spiral Tower, but everyone who wanted to play one of those swapped over to swordmage as soon as it came out. Bards I could see, except that they already have light shield proficency, so all this saves them is the armor penalty for light shield. Archery focused rangers would have hide proficiency already, so all they'd get out of it would be the bonus to ref (and the removal of armor penalty) and to do that, they'd have to give up 1 AC whenever they were wielding their bow. Rogues I could almost buy - except that rogues are almost always going to want to go the two weapon fighting route or have a crossbow/throwing weapon in that hand. If nothing else, they'll take a mage's parrying dagger, in which case all that your feat does for them is give them the +1 to AC and save them a minimal amount of gold.
Really, it's a swordmage feat - and as a swordmage feat, for swordmages that intend to take full advantage of their warding (and thus fight one-handed), it's strictly better than hide armor for all cases except the character who wants to go completely nuts and get hide specialization - oh, wait, that doesn't stack with Greater Swordmage Warding anyway. Eladrin swordmages are just fine as they are. They don't need the buff.
Or, to put it another way, if you want to include this in your own campaign, fine. Just realize that you're twinking Eladrin swordmages. It's not to a game-breaking degree - the game will still work fine, but that's what you're doing. If you want to convince another DM to let you use these, and want to be able to tell him that this is balanced with the other feats/PPs out there, they're not.
Bladesinger was a munchkin kit from the very beginning back in 2.0. It was far more powerful than it had any right to be. If you were a fan of it then, and you are trying to recreate it now, your natural instinct is going to be to reach for that feeling of "I'm just a little bit better than everyone else" - it's the elf thing, you know?
First of all, I have heard this munchkin kit crap for a long time and I don't get it. Even back in the 2e days, this kit was no more of a munchkin than a basic fighter with weapon specialization. I'm sick of the stereotypes about what race a player plays. If you play a halfling you must just like to joke around, if you play an elf, you're a munchkin, etc. Really if you want to see something that was more powerful, the 2e arcane archer had many more "munchkin" tricks than a bonus to AC or a bonus to try "special manuevers". They had heat seaking arrows with spells attached! But you never hear anyone saying, man arcane archer, what a twink class. However, as soon as bladesi- is written, someone is ready to blast it as overpowered.
Aim for low second-tier, to try to counteract your natural tendency to want to make it cooler.
Hey little Joe the squire, what would you like to be when you hit the paragon levels? Well, I'm really hoping to be accepted to a low 2nd tier profession. . .
By the way, for the record, I am the DM for my group and have been since 2e days. I know I can make up whatever class I want and "be allowed" to run it in my games. Like I said in the very first post, I would really be more than happy if WotC came out with an "official" bladesinger. I hope that maybe threads like this can help get the ball rolling.
Really, it's a swordmage feat - and as a swordmage feat, for swordmages that intend to take full advantage of their warding (and thus fight one-handed), it's strictly better than hide armor for all cases except the character who wants to go completely nuts and get hide specialization - oh, wait, that doesn't stack with Greater Swordmage Warding anyway. Eladrin swordmages are just fine as they are. They don't need the buff.
I can appreciate what you're saying here. I think the reason that the swordmages will find it so attractive is because, as far as I know, they are the only class with any kind of incentive to use a single handed weapon in one hand and not use a shield. This was actually one of the reasons I made this feat. I know several people like the idea of a skilled swordfighter who doesn't have to use a huge two handed weapon, two weapons, or a weapon and shield. Not from a powergaming, now-that-frees-my-hand-for-some-more-crazy-laser-death-awesomeness-perspective, but from a fluff perspective. I think one of the goals of the game should be to make it so that interesting character concepts don't have to be penalized.
I know you can make up whatever fluff you want. It just seems lame for your fluff to sound like "I know you took shield specialization and wear hide armor for the AC benefits, but let's just make the fluff that your shield is part of your weapon and your hide armor is so thin it's really more like a shaolin robe".
Really more than anything, it was the fluff of the bladesinger that has always attracted me to it. It was the first AD&D kit that felt like the elf class from the old red box. The background fluff just had really evocative language: "Of all the roving elves, few are as deadly as the Bladesinger. They are the masters of their weapons and have spent their lives in the study of their chosen weapon. They have also learned to cast spells while engaged in combat, thus they double their might." When I first read that section in the 2e Book of Elves, I was hooked. I think there are lots of people who feel the same way, but probably do not post because of the stigma of loving such a "twink" class.
Song of Celerity, Bladesinger Utility 12 While singing a haunting wordless tune, your feet carry you to the most advantageous position for either offense or defense. Encounter - Arcane, Stance Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or a heavy blade in one hand (and nothing in the other). Move Action; Personal Effect: While this stance is in effect, you take a -2 penalty to AC and you may shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum of 1) before and after taking a standard action.
OKay question just to make sure I have this correct.
Say I have a +6 dex mod, this stance allows me to shift 6 squares, attack, then shift 6 squares again?
I've been looking over the BladeSinger Kit again, but not following your take on it from the original.
