As a female myself, I happen to like the idea of giving dragonborns breast. It just makes them more familiar. But then, my characters have a tendancy to be a bit whorish and that is alot harder to do if you don't have ginormous boobs. :P But I like the idea that they have fat pockets. It makes sense and shouldn't cause any problems. But then, this is a rather silly argument to begin with. I crack up just reading it.
As a female myself, I happen to like the idea of giving dragonborns breast. It just makes them more familiar. But then, my characters have a tendancy to be a bit whorish and that is alot harder to do if you don't have ginormous boobs. :P But I like t
I think, perhaps, Dragonborn should be allowed to have breasts.
BUT! to keep in line with my idea of Dragonkin, I think they should all be about A-cup size. It makes sense this way, as I feel the structure of a dragon itself should be slender anyway, regardless of gender.
Of course, I also prefer the wings to be retractable, like in a shape of a tattoo-like mark on its back. Just a thought.
I think, perhaps, Dragonborn should be allowed to have breasts.BUT! to keep in line with my idea of Dragonkin, I think they should all be about A-cup size. It makes sense this way, as I feel the structure of a dragon itself should be slender anyway
I suppose my take on theis debate is to point out that dragons can assume a human form. They make excellent psionics, and can occasionally communicate telepathically. Plus, most evil dragons get a touch more to say before the fight than most villains. Hence, we have the touch of anthropomorphism. And why not? They ARE one of the most important types of non-PC creatures in the any given setting with dragons. It's important to have them presented in a way that shows them as intellectual, instead of having the PC's think of it like a stupid, hungry monster who just happens to be very clever. As a result, half-dragons (which should logically resemble trogladytes) are regular creatures with occasional draconian features. So why not dragon-born? I also want to present the newly-discovered evidence that most dinosuars might have had a four-chambered heart and had hence been warm-blooded reptiles (or reptilian mammals, as right now the ones that definitly were warm blooded are being classified as avian (birds)). I suppose that, given adaptations that might occur, it isn't too unreasonable to suppose that some dragons may have developed a closer bond to infants (probably steel dragons) due to giving birth to weaker offspring with a greater potential for development, and hence developed a method of feeding them that requires no special hunting/foraging on the part of the mother. In other words, it isn't too hard to explain why dragonborn have jubblies. After all, Yuan-Ti females have bewbz too. That doesn't make a whole lot more sense, either...same as harpys.
So longstory short-dragonborn should have mammaries.
I suppose my take on theis debate is to point out that dragons can assume a human form. They make excellent psionics, and can occasionally communicate telepathically. Plus, most evil dragons get a touch more to say before the fight than most villai
So, when my gaming group took a break from it's regular programming to jump into the new 4e playtest module, the dragonborn paladin fell to me. I'm a female player and quite often I play a female character. My dragonborn paladin is a female. After careful consideration of the many wise and thoughtful posts in this thread (tongue firmly in cheek), I have decided to exercise my right to go boobless. I kind of like the idea that only male dragonborn will find me sexually attractive and that non-dragonborn will have to discuss it over beer whether I'm male or female based on demeanor. I like to have a visual representation of my character and I've come up with this... http://www3.telus.net/public/km0209/ember.jpg
This is not original art. It's bits stuck together for my own puposes. In keeping with my own ideas about female dragonborn, I've knocked off the horns and chin dangles that were on the original head. I also made the body a little slimmer than the original male figure. I thought the armour looked suitably feminine. (my 9 yr. old daughter asked me how she was going to fight in a dress. I told her it was a skort.) I added the nice blue colour. As a nod to suggestions found here, I gave her a slightly dull gold colour. I would have liked her scalier, but was having trouble with the texture...c'est la vie.
So, when my gaming group took a break from it's regular programming to jump into the new 4e playtest module, the dragonborn paladin fell to me.I'm a female player and quite often I play a female character. My dragonborn paladin is a female.After care
The males or the females will assume the parental role, and the other will leave. The females don't lactate, so that whole breast idea is out of the window. Though you may have something with the peacock feathers.
I could have easily missed something (i started reading this thread in the middle), but i don't remember seeing anything solid going over the social structure of any of the races. Also, how do you know they don't lactate? the duck-billed platypus is a mammal that lays eggs and lactates.
Wikipedia, Platypus]The newly hatched young are vulnerable, blind, and hairless, and are fed by the mother's milk. Although possessing mammary glands, the Platypus lacks teats. Instead, milk is released through pores in the skin. There are grooves on her abdomen that form pools of milk, allowing the young to lap it up.[3][28] After they hatch, the offspring are suckled for three to four months.
Provided that Dragonborn are mammals (though admittedly odd ones), is it not plausible that they lay and hatch eggs and then suckle their young?
As far as personal tastes go, i would have thought it more interesting if they didn't have them, but it's too much work to contradict all the artwork wrote:
Wikipedia, Platypus[/b]]The newly hatched young are vulnerable, blind, and hairless, and are fed by the mother's milk. Although possessing mammary glands, the Platypus lacks teats. Instead, milk is released through pores in the skin. There are grooves on her abdomen that form pools of milk, allowing the young to lap it up.[3][28] After they hatch, the offspring are suckled for three to four months.[/quote] Provided that Dragonborn are mammals (though admittedly odd ones), is it not plausible that they lay and hatch eggs and then suckle their young?
As far as personal tastes go, i would have thought it more interesting if they didn't have them, but it's too much work to contradict all the artwork
I could have easily missed something (i started reading this thread in the middle), but i don't remember seeing anything solid going over the social structure of any of the races. Also, how do you know they don't lactate? the duck-billed platypus is
I haven't read all the pages to this post, but I am assuming that someone has pointed out the picture on the 'races' page of the PHB where they show both a female and male version of each race and the 'gal' standing in the back on the Dragonborn page obviously has breasts.
I haven't read all the pages to this post, but I am assuming that someone has pointed out the picture on the 'races' page of the PHB where they show both a female and male version of each race and the 'gal' standing in the back on the Dragonborn page
I personally believe that given the structure of how a Dragonborn truly functions, being born from a religious ceremony dedicated to embodiment of a God, they would actually have what could be called shielded mammaries. However, they probably wouldn't have any anyways, since in the Races of the Dragons 3.5e sourcebook it clearly states that Dragonborn are impotent.
However, it is obvious in 4e that Dragonborn have become a common, breedable race. The breast tissue of women are a neccessary function to deliver nutrients to their children, so if the Dragonborn were to give birth to a living child in a non-natural environment, i.e. Urban or Modern, they would have a need for mammaries. However, if they were born in a natural environment, i.e. the rest of nature, they might have mammaries in the style of a cow or a canine, perhaps. Less like bosom and more like sacs.
I'm no anatomy expert nor am I an animal expert, but that's what I would believe is the answer.
Oh, shield mammaries are breasts that are covered by natural armor with fleshy tissue beneath it. The mother is able to cover the breasts when in danger or not using them for breast-feeding, then uncover to breast-feed.
That's my take on it. Enjoy.
I personally believe that given the structure of how a Dragonborn truly functions, being born from a religious ceremony dedicated to embodiment of a God, they would actually have what could be called shielded mammaries. However, they probably wouldn'
And again how would you know that the art was of a Dragonborn Female if she didn't have something to wrap a bra around?
As Flash Plasma (and most likely others... I have jumped around this ancient, long thread, so I haven't read everything) has pointed out, you can easily set some hard and fast rules for the sexual dimorphism among Dragonborn. If you spend enough time around a particular type of reptile, you can often make fairly accurate guesses as to gender among adults without resorting to intensive examination.
Sometimes males are larger, while sometimes females are the bulkier. Sometimes the males have flatter, harder shapes to their form while females are rounder. Tail length often helps (unfortunately, that's not something that Dragonborn have), as does frills, horns, spikes, or other more decorative features (like birds, it can vary as to who gets the more flamboyant look).
There's a myriad of options to make gender distinctive aside from breasts and I'm of the same mindset as some in this thread that, despite the manual's depiction of mammaries on the female Dragonborn, it would be cooler to have a race that ISN'T a stock mammal-based humanoid among the base PHB classes.
Personally, I'm thinking in my upcoming campaign world the female Dragonborn are going to be larger, bulkier, but with softer or duller edges to their scales and other lines while the males with be smaller, leaner, and sharper in features. It's not the most original take, but it'll be a nice change from all the other races where, like humans, the males tend to be the more physically imposing looking on average.
As Flash Plasma (and most likely others... I have jumped around this ancient, long thread, so I haven't read everything) has pointed out, you can easily set some hard and fast rules for the sexual dimorphism among Dragonborn. If you spend enough time
As Flash Plasma (and most likely others... I have jumped around this ancient, long thread, so I haven't read everything) has pointed out, you can easily set some hard and fast rules for the sexual dimorphism among Dragonborn. If you spend enough time around a particular type of reptile, you can often make fairly accurate guesses as to gender among adults without resorting to intensive examination.
This easily countered by "Do you really want have to have a Gender by Race book, that is used to allow you to know wether to refer to a described NPC as Ma'am or Sir"
This easily countered by "Do you really want have to have a Gender by Race book, that is used to allow you to know wether to refer to a described NPC as Ma'am or Sir"
I personally love the idea of female dragonborn being larger, duller in color and breastless.
I think males should be smaller, with prominent coloring, spikes, ridges, or even fins with which to atract the females
I personally love the idea of female dragonborn being larger, duller in color and breastless.I think males should be smaller, with prominent coloring, spikes, ridges, or even fins with which to atract the females
Don't know if its been mentioned before (ain't reading 17 pages for this) but its rather easy to tell the differance between lizards: The base of the tail is thicker with male than it is with female.
Now, where's that thread about dragonborn needing tails...
Don't know if its been mentioned before (ain't reading 17 pages for this) but its rather easy to tell the differance between lizards:The base of the tail is thicker with male than it is with female.Now, where's that thread about dragonborn needing ta
If you do start with a human base and then apply draconic features to every part of the body save the face, chest and stomach, it might look neat and you'd have a dragon looking person with identifiable features...
And as a bonus they could then wear halter tops...
I think you are very close to the mark here, let me clarify.
Dragonborn females should not have breasts at all. However, they absolutely MUST wear a (chainmail) bra and (plate) panties because they are half human.
In fact their armor, and optional pink bowtie atop her head should be the only characteristics that show gender.
They are completely superficial, and as such, expose her as half-human.
I think you are very close to the mark here, let me clarify.Dragonborn females should not have breasts at all.However, they absolutely MUST wear a (chainmail) bra and (plate) panties because they are half human.In fact their armor, and optional pink
Dragons aren't lizards, and Dragonborn are related to Dragons, read Dragon's article. Said article also mentions that they have mamaries for a reason.
Also, wasn't this thread dead and barried till today?
Dragons aren't lizards, and Dragonborn are related to Dragons, read Dragon's article. Said article also mentions that they have mamaries for a reason.Also, wasn't this thread dead and barried till today?
Also, why is this in Multiclassing and such, isn't this more of an astrid's parlor thing? Regardless of how trivial it is.
If you could spell the words of the ritual right.Also, why is this in Multiclassing and such, isn't this more of an astrid's parlor thing? Regardless of how trivial it is.
I believe that the 4th ed. Monster Manual classifies dragonborn as "Humanoid." And the first definition of humanoid I found characterizes it as "a being that has the characteristics of any species of primate mammals comprising of living persons and their ancestors." So it seems that dragonborn would indeed have mammaries. Plus, in just about every text since 4th ed. any depiction of dragonborn females has them with obvious cleavage!
I believe that the 4th ed. Monster Manual classifies dragonborn as "Humanoid."And the first definition of humanoid I found characterizes it as "a being that has the characteristics of any species of primate mammals comprising of living persons and t
6 nipples maybe, with four vestigal. That's how I'd draw it, and they'd probably have clothes to hide their 4 "extra" nipples. For propriety's sake.
I love this thread.
6 nipples maybe, with four vestigal. That's how I'd draw it, and they'd probably have clothes to hide their 4 "extra" nipples. For propriety's sake.I love this thread.
While in a fantasy world, a copper doorknob could have breasts, that doesn't mean it makes any sense for them to. Dragons aren't part cat, bat or anything else. And for gods sake they don't have breasts. And Dragonborn don't either. Or shouldn't have. Name three mammals that hatch from eggs and have breasts.....or one Reptile for that matter. Can't believe i got sucked into this ridiculous argument............
While in a fantasy world, a copper doorknob could have breasts, that doesn't mean it makes any sense for them to.Dragons aren't part cat, bat or anything else. And for gods sake they don't have breasts. And Dragonborn don't either. Or shouldn't have.
Are we defining "breasts" as fleshy sacks of fat? Or as "something with a nipple"?
There are a few mammals which hatch from eggs... Platypuses nurse but they hjave a milky patch of skin. I think that still counts as mammary glands though... I don't know if echidnas have nipples or not.
I can name one thing on this planet with prominent breasts... Humans.
Considering Dragonborn aren't reptiles... They're more like repto-mammals... I don't care if they have breasts or crests. So long as they have the necessary equipment required to support their fluff.
Namely some form of mammary glands, and a vaguely humanoid build.
I still want to know if Rahkshasa have 6 nipples...
Are we defining "breasts" as fleshy sacks of fat? Or as "something with a nipple"?There are a few mammals which hatch from eggs... Platypuses nurse but they hjave a milky patch of skin. I think that still counts as mammary glands though... I don't kn
I'm to all the girl gamers out there but this game was made by BOY geeks for BOY geeks
As such there is a natural tendency for everything to have well.... Boobs....
THERE I'VE SAID IT
so there is a very and i mean VERY high likelyhood that anything female will have ... boobs purely through legacy to the old days
that said maybe its time for a change and that this is no longer needed
you know what be the first to make this game girl freindly Draw your dragonborn females with no mammaries CHANGE DND FOREVER!!!!!
I'm to all the girl gamers out there but this game was made by BOY geeks for BOY geeks As such there is a natural tendency for everything to have well.... Boobs....THERE I'VE SAID IT so there is a very and i mean VERY high likelyhood that anything fe
While in a fantasy world, a copper doorknob could have breasts, that doesn't mean it makes any sense for them to. Dragons aren't part cat, bat or anything else. And for gods sake they don't have breasts. And Dragonborn don't either. Or shouldn't have. Name three mammals that hatch from eggs and have breasts.....or one Reptile for that matter. Can't believe i got sucked into this ridiculous argument............
Name me one reptile that walks upright, uses tools extensively, and has a complicated communication system it can use with other species?
They're not bloody reptiles. They're reptilian. Dragonborn do nurse. They also self-regulate their body temperature, though I'd be surprised if they sweated to do it.
Name me one reptile that walks upright, uses tools extensively, and has a complicated communication system it can use with other species?They're not bloody reptiles. They're reptilian. Dragonborn do nurse. They also self-regulate their body temper
I'm to all the girl gamers out there but this game was made by BOY geeks for BOY geeks
As such there is a natural tendency for everything to have well.... Boobs....
THERE I'VE SAID IT
so there is a very and i mean VERY high likelyhood that anything female will have ... boobs purely through legacy to the old days
that said maybe its time for a change and that this is no longer needed
you know what be the first to make this game girl freindly Draw your dragonborn females with no mammaries CHANGE DND FOREVER!!!!!
Um, no.
Look at all the 4E art. The Dragonborn have cleavage which is created by the idea that they need to be modest in the artwork, thus confirming that Dragonborn do have boobs.
It's a way to rationalize and humanize playable characters.
Star Wars Saga Edition aside, would you ever play as something totally irreconcilably not human? A four-legged Insecto-spider creature? How about a four-legged sapient Rhino that spoke to you? Neither creature resembles humans in the slightest, and thus creates a problem.
All of the playable races have basic human characteristics underlying their framework. Thats how you mass market the idea of likable and unique characters.
Sheesh!
Um, no.Look at all the 4E art. The Dragonborn have cleavage which is created by the idea that they need to be modest in the artwork, thus confirming that Dragonborn do have boobs.It's a way to rationalize and humanize playable characters.Star Wars S
I'm to all the girl gamers out there but this game was made by BOY geeks for BOY geeks
As such there is a natural tendency for everything to have well.... Boobs....
THERE I'VE SAID IT
so there is a very and i mean VERY high likelyhood that anything female will have ... boobs purely through legacy to the old days
that said maybe its time for a change and that this is no longer needed
you know what be the first to make this game girl freindly Draw your dragonborn females with no mammaries CHANGE DND FOREVER!!!!!
I don't know what you're talking about. I know lots of girl gamers (something like 1/4 or 1/3 of the gamers I know. And most of them like breasts just fine...
I don't know what you're talking about. I know lots of girl gamers (something like 1/4 or 1/3 of the gamers I know. And most of them like breasts just fine...
Just do as Disney did and add eyelashes, nice long ones. Or just put a skirt on her. That's about the only thing that distinguishes daisy duck from donald. Donkey was able to roll a 15 on his nature check to notice that the dragon in shrek was a girl dragon.
Just do as Disney did and add eyelashes, nice long ones. Or just put a skirt on her. That's about the only thing that distinguishes daisy duck from donald.Donkey was able to roll a 15 on his nature check to notice that the dragon in shrek was a gir
I have a question... What was his check on "can I breed with this"?
I mean he must have had to beat a DC 305 to manage it.
Eyelashes and lipstick...That is such an amazing distinguishing trait...I have a question... What was his check on "can I breed with this"?I mean he must have had to beat a DC 305 to manage it.
Their scaly, have reptilian qualities and are a player race. How should they be drawn?
Reptiles don't provide milk to their young and Reptiles don't have hair and as such don't come equiped with some of the visual ques humans commonly use do differentiate between genders.
This reminds my of the extreme Difficulty I had in drawing in drawing a female Lizardfolk, she was in what can be called the better moments in my DMing carreer and I felt the desire to draw the scene.
This was strange because I can't draw.
After a lot of tries she just came out as "Boyish" and androgenous her only defining female features being her lack of a crest (which no one who hasn't seen a male Lizardfolk would notice) and wider hips.
I think it would be easier to just draw in mamalian mammaries on the Dragonborn rather then invent and teach a new way of identifying gender.
there is a point to be conceded that, assuming that dragonborn are like real life lizards, that they should have no bosoms. That said, the assumption is a little unfounded, the only thing that we know about dragonborn is that they are somehow descended from dragons, and seeing as we don't have any dragons in real life it would be impossible to categorize them as "lizards" because not enough information is presented. in the end it is quite an arbitrary decision that should be made with the rest of your gaming group.
also, just drawing the boobs will sure make your life easier :P
there is a point to be conceded that, assuming that dragonborn are like real life lizards, that they should have no bosoms. That said, the assumption is a little unfounded, the only thing that we know about dragonborn is that they are somehow descend
So, if we put mammaries on dragonborn, does that mean that female Rakaasha have six?
I have a female gamer, at her request she wanted to play a shifter, she asked me if she could have multiple breasts. I allowed and explained how it would look odd and she came up withthe idea of a pair of C cup on top, then a pair of B breast below, finaly a pair of A cups on botom. since they kept getting smaller it allowed her to wear form fitting clothing more easily to take account for the slope of the cloth in the first place, but no corsets for her.
I have a female gamer, at her request she wanted to play a shifter, she asked me if she could have multiple breasts. I allowed and explained how it would look odd and she came up withthe idea of a pair of C cup on top, then a pair of B breast below,
I have a female gamer, at her request she wanted to play a shifter, she asked me if she could have multiple breasts. I allowed and explained how it would look odd and she came up withthe idea of a pair of C cup on top, then a pair of B breast below, finaly a pair of A cups on botom. since they kept getting smaller it allowed her to wear form fitting clothing more easily to take account for the slope of the cloth in the first place, but no corsets for her.
I have a female gamer, at her request she wanted to play a shifter, she asked me if she could have multiple breasts. I allowed and explained how it would look odd and she came up withthe idea of a pair of C cup on top, then a pair of B breast below, finaly a pair of A cups on botom. since they kept getting smaller it allowed her to wear form fitting clothing more easily to take account for the slope of the cloth in the first place, but no corsets for her.
You can use corsets but they have to be specially crafted, and they wouldn't work quite as well. I would still recomend the Triple Bra though. You know for the lower cost and the added support.
Still be a lot simpler to say two boobs and a full set of 13 nipples... Assuming canine ancestry.
(PS I have returned!)
You can use corsets but they have to be specially crafted, and they wouldn't work quite as well. I would still recomend the Triple Bra though. You know for the lower cost and the added support.Still be a lot simpler to say two boobs and a full set
Okay, I'm too lazy to read through 19 page of the thread. But after the first couple of pages all I could think was, "Damn! I've never seen so many boobie hating guys in my life outside of a gay bar." :D
Okay, I'm too lazy to read through 19 page of the thread. But after the first couple of pages all I could think was, "Damn! I've never seen so many boobie hating guys in my life outside of a gay bar." :D
This whole thing is funny as hell.... on the other hand if you still have questions if a Dragonborn lays eggs or gives live birth it's in the Character Builder atleast with the Background for Rare Egg. Keep this going I want to read more lol.
:mymy: This whole thing is funny as hell.... on the other hand if you still have questions if a Dragonborn lays eggs or gives live birth it's in the Character Builder atleast with the Background for Rare Egg. Keep this going I want to read more lol.
Okay I cannot believe I am actually posting in this thread.
One- This is utterly hilarious
Two- Maybe there's some other really observant people out there, but based on the printed artwork for dragonborn, I can tell the gender based on their FACE. Yes their face, if you look carefully, wizards obviously instituted a style guide of some sort for dragonborn, and that there must be a note on gender differentiation other than the presence or lack thereof of breasts. The main one I noticed first, the chins. Male dragonborn in all the art have pointy-ish ridge like structures underneath the chin. The females notably, do not. Go ahead, go look. I can't recall but there might have been some sort of difference with the scale size/pattern on their brows too, but don't hold me to that one.
Three- I believe a Dragon article mentions that the dragonborn were created for whatever reasons I don't remember which exactly. Point being, divine intentions were to create a HUMANOID race of dragons. Why do female dragonborn have breasts? The same reason female dwarves do, and female elves, and female halflings. The gods FELT like it. They obviously have some concept of what humanoids should be like, otherwise why would Moradin create dwarves remotely like humans or anything else? Obviously you can end up with exceptions to this, but the point is still there. They are humanoids.
Four- Dragonborn also have scales that are directly analogous with hair. No questions come up about that (I haven't seen it yet at least). But its not really hair. Same thing here really. Dragons have neither of these, but dragonborn do. Going on my second observation you can say the male dragonborn more or less have beards too.
On a final note, point three is how I see the default flavor they're going with in the books. Don't like like it? Change it. Nothing wrong with that. IMO they have a perfectly good explanation set up for why things are that way, art and all, but that doesn't mean that's going to be the best for everyone, so change it, takes next to no effort to do so. You can come up with perfectly reasonable explanations any of the sides on this. Pick one and go with it. Mine is basically comes down to "The gods have a conception of what humanoids are and one created a race of humanoid dragons." Perfectly reasonable if the gods already have a concept of humanoids. Go with what works for your group. Also I apologize if I have repeated anything. And with that, I am done.
Okay I cannot believe I am actually posting in this thread.One- This is utterly hilariousTwo- Maybe there's some other really observant people out there, but based on the printed artwork for dragonborn, I can tell the gender based on their FACE. Yes
I don't feel like reading through all 19 pages of this, but if you look at the dragonborn art produced by WotC http://terrasse.pyralis.net/wp-content/ … alebs1.jpg for example. The females have at the very least lumps where breasts would go.
I don't feel like reading through all 19 pages of this, but if you look at the dragonborn art produced by WotC http://terrasse.pyralis.net/wp-content/ … alebs1.jpg for example. The females have at the very least lumps where breasts would go.
there is a point to be conceded that, assuming that dragonborn are like real life lizards, that they should have no bosoms. That said, the assumption is a little unfounded, the only thing that we know about dragonborn is that they are somehow descended from dragons, and seeing as we don't have any dragons in real life it would be impossible to categorize them as "lizards" because not enough information is presented. in the end it is quite an arbitrary decision that should be made with the rest of your gaming group.
also, just drawing the boobs will sure make your life easier :P
A more realistic argument than pointing out that female lizards don't have mammaries is to point out that female dragons don't have mammaries.
That said, Wizards has made their decision and the artwork is out. It's now up to individual DMs to decide whether to adopt it in their games or not.
A more realistic argument than pointing out that female lizards don't have mammaries is to point out that female dragons don't have mammaries.That said, Wizards has made their decision and the artwork is out. It's now up to individual DMs to decide w
I left it up to the one player in my gaming group who wanted to play a dragonborn character, since she had the most interest in the race of the members of our group. According to her, dragonborn have none of the typical human gender cues, but they can tell their males from their females as easily as we do ours. Once the decision was made, we backfit it with the appropriate explanation.
It's fluff, so WotC has less sway over it than the players as far as I'm concerned. Let their artists draw them any way they like.
I left it up to the one player in my gaming group who wanted to play a dragonborn character, since she had the most interest in the race of the members of our group. According to her, dragonborn have none of the typical human gender cues, but they c
"Like true dragons, however, dragonborn hatch from eggs, usually laid singly or, more rarely, in a pair. Hatchlings are quickly capable of standing and walking, but their teeth take a few months to come in. During this time, the mother nurses her offspring. She slowly weans the child to soft and then normal food, which for dragonborn is usually more meat than other edibles."
Still ambiguous about the mammary issue.
From Dragon 365"Like true dragons, however, dragonborn hatchfrom eggs, usually laid singly or, more rarely, in apair. Hatchlings are quickly capable of standingand walking, but their teeth take a few months tocome in. During this time, the mother nur
Okay I cannot believe I am actually posting in this thread.
Three- I believe a Dragon article mentions that the dragonborn were created for whatever reasons I don't remember which exactly. Point being, divine intentions were to create a HUMANOID race of dragons. Why do female dragonborn have breasts? The same reason female dwarves do, and female elves, and female halflings. The gods FELT like it. They obviously have some concept of what humanoids should be like, otherwise why would Moradin create dwarves remotely like humans or anything else? Obviously you can end up with exceptions to this, but the point is still there. They are humanoids.
you are so right. in evolutionary terms their bioobs don't make sense but we all have been forgetting one thing: in the d&d-verse, intelligent design true, evolution false!
you are so right. in evolutionary terms their bioobs don't make sense but we all have been forgetting one thing: in the d&d-verse, intelligent design true, evolution false!
you are so right. in evolutionary terms their bioobs don't make sense but we all have been forgetting one thing: in the d&d-verse, intelligent design true, evolution false!
Not evolution false, just "evolution as the absolute origin of everything." Evolution is a process that dictates what works survives, what doesn't declines. And I do believe that some of the races/monsters are described as coming into being by some evolution. For instance shifters were obviously not divinely originated as shifters, nor tieflings either (okay the tieflings are a entirely another case, but still). But the main humanoid races are most often described as divinely created.
Not evolution false, just "evolution as the absolute origin of everything." Evolution is a process that dictates what works survives, what doesn't declines. And I do believe that some of the races/monsters are described as coming into being by some e
Not evolution false, just "evolution as the absolute origin of everything." Evolution is a process that dictates what works survives, what doesn't declines. And I do believe that some of the races/monsters are described as coming into being by some evolution. For instance shifters were obviously not divinely originated as shifters, nor tieflings either (okay the tieflings are a entirely another case, but still). But the main humanoid races are most often described as divinely created.
i don't think evolution happens anywhere in d&d. if it does then there's probably an old coca-cola factory spewing caffeine into the environment that speeds up the evolutionary process. what i'm getting at is this, thought wotc hasn't stated how old their world is, for some reason the world seems to be only millenia old; thousands of years is not enough for evolution to do its work as we know it. i wouldn't say shifters or tieflings evolved per se but came about as a result of unconscious selective breeding. hope i make sense
i don't think evolution happens anywhere in d&d. if it does then there's probably an old coca-cola factory spewing caffeine into the environment that speeds up the evolutionary process. what i'm getting at is this, thought wotc hasn't stated how old
Unconscious selective breeding is evolution. Plus I'm pretty sure the term "evolution" comes up in some of the monster lore entries. Also, evolution can often happen very fast. Speciation less so, but sometimes at a pretty fast rate. Now provided your not going to get stuff like reptiles to mammals/birds in that amount of time, but evolution doesn't suddenly go from one thing to another, it's constantly happening. I'm not saying that everything in D&D evolved from single celled organisms or even a small group of species. But it only makes sense for the process of evolution to continue to function. Otherwise you have two rather absurd situations. 1- stuff that's less suited to or even bad at surviving would have to survive just as well as the stuff that's well suited. Otherwise you get selection favoring traits and that's evolution. 2- Along the same lines, things that have never been suited to survive somewhere would somehow persist on their own and paradoxically survive.
But the main point we agree on, which is that initial origins for most things in the D&D world were by creation of some sort.
Unconscious selective breeding is evolution. Plus I'm pretty sure the term "evolution" comes up in some of the monster lore entries. Also, evolution can often happen very fast. Speciation less so, but sometimes at a pretty fast rate. Now provided you
Unconscious selective breeding is evolution. Plus I'm pretty sure the term "evolution" comes up in some of the monster lore entries. Also, evolution can often happen very fast. Speciation less so, but sometimes at a pretty fast rate. Now provided your not going to get stuff like reptiles to mammals/birds in that amount of time, but evolution doesn't suddenly go from one thing to another, it's constantly happening. I'm not saying that everything in D&D evolved from single celled organisms or even a small group of species. But it only makes sense for the process of evolution to continue to function. Otherwise you have two rather absurd situations. 1- stuff that's less suited to or even bad at surviving would have to survive just as well as the stuff that's well suited. Otherwise you get selection favoring traits and that's evolution. 2- Along the same lines, things that have never been suited to survive somewhere would somehow persist on their own and paradoxically survive.
But the main point we agree on, which is that initial origins for most things in the D&D world were by creation of some sort.
yeah i agree. as for single celled organisms, i highly doubt that such a thing ever existed in the d&d world. even if there are any i think they were made that way instead of actually evolving that way because all the current origin stories say the gods made the world and i don't see them making a fiery world with a bubbling primordial sea because there would be no point in creating such a world which would not be discernible from the pre-existing chaos of the primordials. so based on that, i believe every creature was created either directly or indirectly by the gods at first, however since that day millenia ago their environments began changing them but not to the point where entirely new species have arisen.
yeah i agree. as for single celled organisms, i highly doubt that such a thing ever existed in the d&d world. even if there are any i think they were made that way instead of actually evolving that way because all the current origin stories say the g
Ya, I wasn't suggesting anything in the D&D world started that way. Although there is such thing as instant speciation. It's most common in plants, but happens in some animals occasionally too. A genetic mishap, something going wrong with meiosis I think, but you end up with an offspring that is completely incapable of backcrossing with it's ancestral line. Has to do with polypoidy I believe. I don't feel like finding a reference but you should be able to look it up pretty easily.
Edit: these are fertile and can sometimes end up breeding with others from such sorts of occurrances. But like I said, more common with plants than anything else.
Ya, I wasn't suggesting anything in the D&D world started that way. Although there is such thing as instant speciation. It's most common in plants, but happens in some animals occasionally too. A genetic mishap, something going wrong with meiosis I t
Ya, I wasn't suggesting anything in the D&D world started that way. Although there is such thing as instant speciation. It's most common in plants, but happens in some animals occasionally too. A genetic mishap, something going wrong with meiosis I think, but you end up with an offspring that is completely incapable of backcrossing with it's ancestral line. Has to do with polypoidy I believe. I don't feel like finding a reference but you should be able to look it up pretty easily.
Edit: these are fertile and can sometimes end up breeding with others from such sorts of occurrances. But like I said, more common with plants than anything else.
ok i never got beyond bio 101 so that's where my knowledge of genetics stops
ok i never got beyond bio 101 so that's where my knowledge of genetics stops
Simply evolution/speciation occurs at variable speed. It's still mainly speculation as to whether evolution is always slow and gradual, or whether it takes leaps in change (quicker that is). There's evidence on both sides of the issue. Not really a big deal. As to no speciation as of yet, well I don't recall exactly but weren't all the "elves," elves, elardrin, and drow supposed to have been one group originally? I guess it's not explicit that they are separate, and you know what, screw this, D&D more or less throws species concepts out the window because otherwise Humans, Elves, and Orcs are likely the same species, which is weird, I'm just going to stop now lol.
Simply evolution/speciation occurs at variable speed. It's still mainly speculation as to whether evolution is always slow and gradual, or whether it takes leaps in change (quicker that is). There's evidence on both sides of the issue. Not really a b
"Like true dragons, however, dragonborn hatch from eggs, usually laid singly or, more rarely, in a pair. Hatchlings are quickly capable of standing and walking, but their teeth take a few months to come in. During this time, the mother nurses her offspring. She slowly weans the child to soft and then normal food, which for dragonborn is usually more meat than other edibles."
Still ambiguous about the mammary issue.
What's ambiguous about it? The word 'wean' is used, which means they aren't immediately able to eat soft food. Until they are weaned to soft food, what do you think they survive on?
Breast milk.
It's breasts, and they're used for the exact same things humans use them for. This discussion has gone on far too long, especially for something that will undoubtedly vary from DM to DM and even player to player, assuming it ever even comes up.
What's ambiguous about it? The word 'wean' is used, which means they aren't immediately able to eat soft food. Until they are weaned to soft food, what do you think they survive on?Breast milk.It's breasts, and they're used for the exact same things
Heh, if it feels like a bag of sand, are you SURE you were grabbing a WOMAN's boob?
Totally.
I dated this girl for a while. She was really a... nasty freak. She just loved to get down with sex all the time. It was like... anytime of day, she was like, "Yeah, let's go! I'm so nasty!" And I'd be nailing her and she'd be like, "Oh, you're nailing me! Cool!"
Totally.I dated this girl for a while. She was really a... nasty freak. She just loved to get down with sex all the time. It was like... anytime of day, she was like, "Yeah, let's go! I'm so nasty!" And I'd be nailing her and she'd be like, "Oh, you'
What's ambiguous about it? The word 'wean' is used, which means they aren't immediately able to eat soft food. Until they are weaned to soft food, what do you think they survive on?
Breast milk.
It's breasts, and they're used for the exact same things humans use them for. This discussion has gone on far too long, especially for something that will undoubtedly vary from DM to DM and even player to player, assuming it ever even comes up.
How does one wean when one has no lips?
(It warms my heart that this thread is still going :D.)
How does one wean when one has no lips?(It warms my heart that this thread is still going :D.)
Female Dragonborn are depicted as having two breasts (or breast-like lumps) in the 4E manuals. To me, that settles the debate pretty well. Draw the ta-tas.
Female Dragonborn are depicted as having two breasts (or breast-like lumps) in the 4E manuals. To me, that settles the debate pretty well. Draw the ta-tas.
Since there are so many ideas here I figured I would throw this one in. When they remade the warforged for 4th edition they decided to keep some of their origins from 3rd. Now keeping with this idea, if you think back to when they made dragonborns in 3rd edition they were regular player character races [humanas, elves, dwarves, etc, etc.] who were given a chance by the faithful of bahumat to be reborn as dragonborn to be more powerful forces for good. So with this idea it is not ridiculous to assume they would have human or mammalian descriptions for their bodies.
Since there are so many ideas here I figured I would throw this one in. When they remade the warforged for 4th edition they decided to keep some of their origins from 3rd. Now keeping with this idea, if you think back to when they made dragonborns in
In my setting, there are three slightly different dragonborn creation myths, all of which may or may not be 'true' either literally or metaphorically, and all of which are compatible with females of the species having breasts.
The first is that they are the descendants of ancient dragons who spent so much time magically polymorphed into humanoid forms and interacting with (i.e. manipulating) humanoids that they eventually got 'stuck' (whether intentionally or not) in half-human half-dragon forms. Essentially this is the same as how harpies came to be (they are descended from an elven sorceress who polymorphed into an eagle form). It's interesting that nobody ever argues that female harpies shouldn't have boobs because eagles aren't mammals. Dragonborn themselves like this version the best and look up to 'proper' dragons as essentially a combination of honoured ancestor and creator deity. Each dragonborn clan traces its lineage back to a single ancient dragon with which they share their breath weapon/elemental affinity and scale colour. For example, the blue-scaled, lightning-spitting Stormkin clan claim the blue dragon named Zakkaraddon ('He Who Split The Sky') as their ancestor.
The second is that those same ancient dragons, while polymorphed into humanoid forms, fell in love with real mortal humanoids and mated with them to produce dragonborn children. Why modern dragons (even the few who still know how to polymorph into humanoid forms) can't breed with humanoids and produce offspring with them is something nobody seems able to explain. The dragonborn themselves don't much care for this version, since it implies they're not fully dragon-blooded, which offends their pride in their draconic ancestry.
The third is that the first dragonborn were a cabal of evil human sorcerers who worshipped powerful ancient dragons as gods and used a dreadful blood-fueled ritual to turn themselves into half-dragon forms (the ritual went awry - they were actually aiming for full dragonhood). This myth ties in to the ascension of the chaotic evil god Dahauk ('The Dragon of Chaos'), who is said to have been a mortal mass-murderer who achieved divinity through 'The Path of Blood' (i.e. killing a whole lot of people and 'climbing to Heaven upon a staircase of corpses'). He too became a dragon (and a god) through shedding blood, but the many variations of this myth do not agree on whether the mortal Dahauk was the leader of the dragon-sorcerer cult, or whether he inspired them or they inspired him. In any case, most dragonborn (i.e. all those who don't themselves worship Dahauk) really, really hate this myth.
In none of these myths are dragonborn 'reptiles', of course. They are either partly human (i.e. partly mammalian) or they are dragons in half-human (i.e. half-mammalian) form. Either way, it's quite natural that the females of the species have breasts.
PS: I'd like to point out that I'm not the one who performed necromancy on this thread seven months after its supposed death. I deny all culpability!
In my setting, there are three slightly different dragonborn creation myths, all of which may or may not be 'true' either literally or metaphorically, and all of which are compatible with females of the species having breasts.The first is that they a
The reason why the current Dragonborn have such is due to the fact they are just bring over the Dragonborn of bahamut from Races of dragons, in the book it was more of a transformation from the orginal race to become dragonborn, including orginal shape, I place bets that the developers and artist in 4th just carried the image of such over, reason why dragon born have breast.
(Oh wow, there was 54 pages...I did not read all of them before I sent this, sorry if I sound like I repeat someone else)
The reason why the current Dragonborn have such is due to the fact they are just bring over the Dragonborn of bahamut from Races of dragons, in the book it was more of a transformation from the orginal race to become dragonborn, including orginal sha
This whole thing is funny as hell.... on the other hand if you still have questions if a Dragonborn lays eggs or gives live birth it's in the Character Builder atleast with the Background for Rare Egg. Keep this going I want to read more lol.
