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well, you're assuming that death is so common that the characters can figure out the pattern.[/quote]
How often does it need to happen? Just once or twice, I would think, compared to the sheer number of times it doesn't work on someone else. But there's another rub, too, because PC's don't habitually go around casting Raise Dead on all the poor deceased plebes they come across. And why not, I ask you? There are 2 main reasons: the first is that they are ignoring the fact that Raise Dead is possible in a desperate attempt to preserve some logic/verisimilitude; the second is the "expense" aspect. The first reason is a silent scream for a logical world, the second is an accounting problem tempered with moral quandry. Neither, IMHO, promote the "fun" you were talking about.

Archtyrant Terevoth]The reason a desert happens to be in a given location is simply beacuse the DM wanted it that way.

Well, that's true. I think the main difference, for me, is that I don't fully understand weather and how it relates to geography. OTOH, I know that dead people don't come back, and as a result death is a tragic, tragic loss. Still, weather happens (even freak weather that modern science can't explain or predict), so if it happens "out of sync" with "reality", I won't be too worried. So what if it's not typhoon season and a typhoon hits? It happens. But coming back from the dead doesn't.

The reason a desert happens to be in a given location is simply beacuse the DM wanted it that way.[/quote]
Well, that's true. I think the main difference, for me, is that I don't fully understand weather and how it relates to geography. OTOH, I know that dead people don't come back, and as a result death is a tragic, tragic loss. Still, weather happens (even freak weather that modern science can't explain or predict), so if it happens "out of sync" with "reality", I won't be too worried. So what if it's not typhoon season and a typhoon hits? It happens. But coming back from the dead doesn't.

Archtyrant Terevoth]Sometimes you've got people who live long lives who are overweight, smoke regularly, drink, do drugs. Others who exercise regularly and don't do any drugs die young.

Like the weather, surviving against all odds happens. But whether or not my neighbor is a 108 year old man who smokes and drinks his weight in vices everyday does not affect the way I perceive reality. (The guy probably has a Con score of 22.) But if he died, like really, really died, and then came back, well, that would shake the world to its core.

Sometimes you've got people who live long lives who are overweight, smoke regularly, drink, do drugs. Others who exercise regularly and don't do any drugs die young.[/quote]
Like the weather, surviving against all odds happens. But whether or not my neighbor is a 108 year old man who smokes and drinks his weight in vices everyday does not affect the way I perceive reality. (The guy probably has a Con score of 22.) But if he died, like really, really died, and then came back, well, that would shake the world to its core.

Archtyrant Terevoth]Well, it still means you may want to avoid dying, because there's still that possibility it may not work next time. It's not like cancer survivors aren't worried about the cancer coming back because the treatments worked the first and second time around.

This is a really good analogy. The only counter-argument I can offer is: cancer survivors don't usually heal overnight ... it's usually a process of months or years of painful and invasive treatments, radical bodily (and spiritual!) changes, and the like. It's not like some cleric broke a stone over your head and called your soul back to your body and everyone went out for breakfast afterward.

Well, it still means you may want to avoid dying, because there's still that possibility it may not work next time. It's not like cancer survivors aren't worried about the cancer coming back because the treatments worked the first and second time around.[/quote]
This is a really good analogy. The only counter-argument I can offer is: cancer survivors don't usually heal overnight ... it's usually a process of months or years of painful and invasive treatments, radical bodily (and spiritual!) changes, and the like. It's not like some cleric broke a stone over your head and called your soul back to your body and everyone went out for breakfast afterward.

Archtyrant Terevoth]Well, the problem is that in this case, consistency isn't something you want. You don't want PCs to die permanently and you don't want NPCs to keep coming back. You really do want the rules to treat them differently. [...] Well on the case of raise dead, because we really want *unfair* treatment, it's hard not to institute some system of DM fiat.

Actually, consistency IS something I want. At the very least, something logical. If there are rules that treat PC and NPC and Villain death differently, the rules should be logical. WHY are they different? And of course, we have explored that possibility to death (bah-dum-tsh! wrote:

Well, the problem is that in this case, consistency isn't something you want. You don't want PCs to die permanently and you don't want NPCs to keep coming back. You really do want the rules to treat them differently. [...] Well on the case of raise dead, because we really want *unfair* treatment, it's hard not to institute some system of DM fiat.[/quote]
Actually, consistency IS something I want. At the very least, something logical. If there are rules that treat PC and NPC and Villain death differently, the rules should be logical. WHY are they different? And of course, we have explored that possibility to death (bah-dum-tsh! ) As for really wanting to give the players a break ... death is supposed to be hard. Utter. Ultimate. Not a slap on the wrist.

Archtyrant Terevoth][...] and PCs just not die. Badly injured, left for dead, whatever.. just don't kill them. [...] It'd be nice to give PCs some kind of "get out of death, but with a consequence" mechanic.

I can drink to that!

[...] and PCs just not die. Badly injured, left for dead, whatever.. just don't kill them. [...] It'd be nice to give PCs some kind of "get out of death, but with a consequence" mechanic.[/quote]
I can drink to that!

Archtyrant Terevoth][/quote wrote:

If you turn into energy you shouldn't be bouncing back on a regular basis.[/quote]
What about Terra from FF3/6?

makeshiftwings]Sounds pretty good to me. Pretty easy to house rule too if you want it less abstract and more realistic. Just change it so that the costs scale using the components from Raise Dead in real life, with the same series of skill checks that clerics in the real world make when doing it. I like the abstracted version better myself.

? There's a real life way of doing it ?

Sounds pretty good to me. Pretty easy to house rule too if you want it less abstract and more realistic. Just change it so that the costs scale using the components from Raise Dead in real life, with the same series of skill checks that clerics in the real world make when doing it. I like the abstracted version better myself.[/quote]
? There's a real life way of doing it ?

calronmoonflower]Well I can say that Resurrection isn't for all games. [...] Playing it one way doesn't invalidate the other.

In the end, this is the ultimate truth. However, I like to think this is more of an intellectual view-point discussion, not a "may way is better than yours" slugfest.

As for the First Law of Resurrection, I think this quote is the best: "Much handwaving may be required in order to explain it (when they don't leave it unexplained entirely), but anything is possible. If the explanation for it is especially poor, this may lead to a Jump The Shark moment." Except I would change "especially poor" to "not especially good".

@ Rotipher:
That's an interesting take, and certainly plausible, but if so I am pretty certain I will reject it. No biggie ... I already rejected the core Res spells, wrote:

Well I can say that Resurrection isn't for all games. [...] Playing it one way doesn't invalidate the other.[/quote]
In the end, this is the ultimate truth. However, I like to think this is more of an intellectual view-point discussion, not a "may way is better than yours" slugfest.

As for the First Law of Resurrection, I think this quote is the best: "Much handwaving may be required in order to explain it (when they don't leave it unexplained entirely), but anything is possible. If the explanation for it is especially poor, this may lead to a Jump The Shark moment." Except I would change "especially poor" to "not especially good".

@ Rotipher:
That's an interesting take, and certainly plausible, but if so I am pretty certain I will reject it. No biggie ... I already rejected the core Res spells, anyway.