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I'd like to see DarkSun developed exactly because it's not 'safe' and familiar.

That however is the core reason it never made it into the mainstream of dnd.
Its highly challenging on a personal level to take on the hardships and challenges it offers, instead of just whipping around in a more standard setting free to do pretty much anything you like without restriction or consequence and certainly without the vast swaths or moral greys and ethical mires common on Athas.
(Defiling is part of that moral dilemma aspect, as illustrated even in this brief thread, there aren't many people who realise it- despite having been a contentious issue for so many years).


A few years ago I would love to've seen it re-created in a way that more people could appreciate (ie: not as harsh) but (and I'll sound condescending here though I don't mean to) the target audience of dnd isn't mature enough to handle it.... hell, most people I know regardless of actual age can't handle the setting, well before even tackling its moral aspects (aside from treating it as a bloodbath & power-gaming through it).

It was mentioned a while back that DarkSun's original concept was to release a setting in it's Blue Age time-frame. It could be truly awesome if that's the current goal - but its a sci-fi setting and potentially even more niche than the current incarnation of DarkSun and on top of that could easily put existing fans off-side for reasons outlined below.

The truly great thing about DarkSun is that the core idea of the whole thing is that it's ground-breaking and evolutionary, a Blue Age version could be truly amazing if it were done right... fans of other settings would want similar treatment though.

The die-hard fans have for over a decade developed their own games; athas.org have gone out of their way to produce mountains of material purely in their own personal time & take the extra time to publicly test & present them in a professional manner... that alone I think deserves a little kudos or special mention like say in a DMG.

It's never wise to make anything purely to please fans though, they've each got their own idea of how things should be and extremely high expectations - even if you please a few, the rest tend to be even more critical than people new to the setting/product.

A half-arsed attempt that as Azazyll suggested, might see a core feature boxed into an existing mechanic (defilers as warlocks for example) would guarantee its failure amongst fans and engender a great loss of respect from all quarters.

I'd recommend they evaluate what it is they've got worked out best, what really captures the imagination of their whole team and make it the highest quality it possibly can be - preferably with supporting tools to help DM's and players alike.

From my point of view SpellJammer is their best bet, particularly as its open to linkage from people who want to incorporate it into their existing settings while it still stands up on its own merits.

On a side note, I'd point out that dnd needs to offer more than hackNslash alone (which I believe wizards recognize) - console & computer games have that aspect of gaming covered better than any non-computing platform could ever accomplish.
Having said that, a greater focus on employing artists (good artists) to visually flesh out the various settings, official adventures, supplements and novels would be a huge help.

I've reach the point that I'm just going to wait and see. I'm kinda tired of arguing over the setting we're going to get. Until new credible evidence shows up we're spinning our wheels on this one.

I agree with TharDuus that defiling should be the norm and all arcane classes would be subject to it. If you want preserving, than take a free feat (instead of Ritual Caster or Alchemist). There could be feats that boost defiling, but not too many, as it should be reserved for supplemental material on evil content (I do think that unaligned characters would use it's really about ignorance - not knowing there is a better way or returning Athas to a lush land).

I don't think gladiator needs to be a new class. 4E rules are perfect for arena fighting and we already have new stuff for martial characters becoming gladiators. (Although a martial controller would be perfect for this setting.)

Templars should either be a PP or NPC monster, or both. If there would be templar rules, it should be in an evil supplement, although, again even unaligned characters would choose it because of the ignorance/social class issue.

Even though Dark Sun has always been my favorite setting, I can see the inclusion of divine classes and the new races. With the changes that occured in the novels, hope and faith can make mighty changes. Paladins can follow ideals, just like clerics, monks, and others can. That has already been used in Eberron and a few other worlds. I am reluctant to say that the old gods can come back. I would actually see it closer to vestiges and worshipping spirits of the land (or the more powerful primordials). Granted the elemental source would fit better, but there can be a place for the divine.

Races is even easier. First, Athas was hardly as explored as the other campaign worlds. Even with their one expansion, it still left a lot (especially with the assumption that there would be no oceans). There is a lot of run to insert new races. And speaking of 'new races,' Athas was choke full of them. Creatures were literally being created in the past as well as the present.

As for what should appear in the Dark Sun Player's Guide: Muls and Thri-kreen. There would obviously be sections that pertain to the fluff changes of the other races (age and height changes for the elves don't change any of the mecanics of the game, for instance).

Epic Destinys play right into Dark Sun. A Dragon ED would need to be included, along with Avangion, just for the reason that player's are going to want it, even though it is evil. Mechanics can be changed so that it doesn't require mass genocide. But, in an evil artile in Dragon, the Dragon ED could be flushed out more for an evil campaign. If it is not an ED, it would definitely need to be in the Campaign Guide as an epic level monster.

Last, but certainly not least, is psionics. Everybody should have a wild talent. I don't think 4E rules will have it (just a suspicion), so it would probably be something like backgrounds. You would get a small bonus or effect and the fluff would be psionic in nature. Another option is a free feat. Feats are perfect tools for creating psionics for non-psionic class characters.

Last word for now: Starting at 3rd level and having a character tree. It's silly, but that was my biggest complaint about Athas.org's 3E rules. It wasn't in the rules at all. I know it has nothing to do with mechanics. It is just something anybody can do, but I think it immediately gives Dark Sun the feeling that it is harsher and more powerful. No matter what setting I play or DM in, I always start at 1st level, expect Dark Sun. Charater trees and 3rd level should just be the rule. (I know that 4E 1st level charaters are tougher than any other edition, but it still should be done. You get the utility power and a second encounter attack power).

GhostStepper wrote:

The thing that is disappointing to me is that they are definately going to want to include everything 4E, including things like tieflings.

Yeah, I really don't see anyone in this thread enjoying Dark Sun. I would, but then again I'm pretty flexible in what I like. Also I was already playing a Dark-Sun inspired before coming to D&D. I came to D&D for a few reasons, one of which was I wanted a high-magic game which this didn't allow.

I'd personally love to see what Wizards do with Dark Sun. I just don't think anyone here is going to like it because any deviation from what they see as "Dark Sun" will be considered sacrilege. If you thought the FR fans kicked up a storm at the changes, its nothing compared to what Dark Sun fans will kick up.

I think everyone in this thread should simply wait for the psionic classes and then make their own 4th edition Dark Sun campaign.

I started playing D&D about six months before the release of 3e. I remember the first campaign I ran was in Dark Sun, because a friend of mine had given me the setting. I really enjoyed it then, and I would love to see the setting released for 4e. I would probably buy it because I love to read campaign settings for adventure and world ideas (following my short run with Dark Sun, my group and I made out own gaming world and we still adventure only in that world).