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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 6:18AM
#401
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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It is a combination of info present in Worlds and Monsters and from Open Grave.
Right on, and isn't there some more animus (and shadow and necromancy) juice in that City Entombed article?
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 6:29AM
#402
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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Right on, and isn't there some more animus (and shadow and necromancy) juice in that City Entombed article?
Oh yeah. My wizard is definitely taking Grasp of the Grave when she gets her next level.
I can't wait to get a shadow leader into my hands, though. I hope it has an Int/Wis build.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 11:47AM
#403
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To put this all another way... How many different explanations for Psionic power can you devise? One is "study and training", another is "innate talent", a third is "possessed by a Quori", the fourth is "mix of talent and insanity", innately psionic races, Kalashtar, and artificially innately psionic Elan probably deserve their own placings, another can be "infused with the power of an ancient artifact", and reincarnation can probably be used to explain anything... Actually, I am willing that I can think of a few more given some more time, and almost everything I mentioned can be combined to some extent with any of the others. And I argue that any Power Source, including Martial, has just as many possible explanations for how the characters and classes of that power source possesses the abilities that they do.
That's all true and I agree with it, but one thing I would hope not to find on your list is "trained themselves as a Fighter", "sudied the same as a Wizard" or "initiated as a Cleric"
I'm not saying there are only certain ways a person can gain their power, I'm saying there are certain ways you can't gain the power. If two different kinds of power can be obtained in the same way then we have a continuity overlap problem.
You're right. Ki is getting a promotion in 4E, but it's no different then the promotion Primal got (from being mostly a sub-category of Divine in all previous editions). That's one of the things that comes with a new edition, change.
Thats back when divine was just a category of power or more of how you were getting it; Primal at the time was a sub-category of divine but so was modern Divine.
so I disagree, I think the power of nature has always been a major player, It was called divine but divine had a different context back then; in old editions divine magic was just magic from external sources.
Also, nature magic could be found in almost any setting in any part of the world. It came in many different styles and forms, and it had many different schools of thought and philosophies within it(including Ki). Ki was always much more obscure and peticular.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 1:02PM
#404
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That's all true and I agree with it, but one thing I would hope not to find on your list is "trained themselves as a Fighter", "sudied the same as a Wizard" or "initiated as a Cleric"
Depends. If you initiate as a cleric of Corellion's magic portfolio, I would think it resonable to use Wizard or Feylock stats for your character.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 2:05PM
#405
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2002
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That's all true and I agree with it, but one thing I would hope not to find on your list is "trained themselves as a Fighter", "sudied the same as a Wizard" or "initiated as a Cleric"
I'm not saying there are only certain ways a person can gain their power, I'm saying there are certain ways you can't gain the power. If two different kinds of power can be obtained in the same way then we have a continuity overlap problem.
At this point, all I can say is that I disagree. At the level of very rough granularity that we have been discussing the topic (particularly when it still applies to the main topic), then that statement doesn't hold true at all. Keep in mind, this entire conversation emerged from the claim that whole power sources are too similar because of similar training methods.
Besides, I don't really think you can disallow any possibilities in the fantasy genre. In fact, it can be argued that a character who gains the skill of a Fighter by studying magical scrolls and ancient texts like a Wizard does is a fairly archetypical character in the Wuxia genre. I am pretty sure that something like this happens in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually... Certainly, I have no problem imagining an ordained priest of Kord who fights just like a Fighter because of a unique divine blessing from Kord Himself.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 3:14PM
#406
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At this point, all I can say is that I disagree. At the level of very rough granularity that we have been discussing the topic (particularly when it still applies to the main topic), then that statement doesn't hold true at all. Keep in mind, this entire conversation emerged from the claim that whole power sources are too similar because of similar training methods.
Besides, I don't really think you can disallow any possibilities in the fantasy genre. In fact, it can be argued that a character who gains the skill of a Fighter by studying magical scrolls and ancient texts like a Wizard does is a fairly archetypical character in the Wuxia genre. I am pretty sure that something like this happens in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, actually... Certainly, I have no problem imagining an ordained priest of Kord who fights just like a Fighter because of a unique divine blessing from Kord Himself.
I don't have a problem with players coming up ideas that are inconsistant, players have the right to do whatever they want, but I hold higher standards for WotC, the stuff they come out with should all dynamicly fit together so that we at least have something stable to stand on, we need all players have a conventional understanding of things so that we don't have argue or explain everthing about every setting and character.
Those examples are fine, If a player wanted to do any of those examples in my game I would let them. But it's not my job to make sense of the stuff WotC puts out, it's my job and my player's job to make it into our own nonsense.
Depends. If you initiate as a cleric of Corellion's magic portfolio, I would think it resonable to use Wizard or Feylock stats for your character.
You said that they're initiating into a peticular portfolio of the god, so therefore it is not the same as a Cleric's initiation, although they could still be called a cleric, but a Wizard by anyother name smells just as... sweet?. I'm going to pretend that part of the example is not there to illustrate my counterpoint.
If a player said this, I would say go for it and not get hung up on whether it made sense or not.
If a PH said this, I would argue that there would have to be something different about that initiation or the people involved, otherwise logically there would be no Clerics of Corellion that have Cleric powers.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 3:20PM
#407
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2007
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So, by this point, everyone understands my argument, or at least has stopped listening.
Anyway, I haven't been around for a few days, since, y'know, this isn't very much fun and I went to enjoy myself and play games instead. So I came back with a fresh perspective. And you know what I've decided since then?
Who cares?
Is Ki going to be unnecessary and completely redundant? Youbetcha. It's a given. They might as well add to the other power sources "- except when it's going to result in something Asian-like, because then it's a different power source, despite a likely complete lack of an Asia in your campaign world." Because some people obviously think "it's new, different, and exciting, because it's Asian!" is a perfectly good argument.
But Races and Classes at least implies that the Monk class will be very physical, and can be something other than a seeker-of-enlightenment-and-perfection type, so there's some hope that the archetypes I want will still be possible. Granted, Races and Classes is a very old book, and some of its ideas changed before they were officially printed, but it's the most info we've got on the Monk. And the Barbarian seems to be turning out pretty sweet, despite not being exactly what I was hoping for. So maybe, just maybe, the Monk will turn out okay, despite my concerns about concept distinction.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 3:32PM
#408
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So, by this point, everyone understands my argument, or at least has stopped listening.
Anyway, I haven't been around for a few days, since, y'know, this isn't very much fun and I went to enjoy myself and play games instead. So I came back with a fresh perspective. And you know what I've decided since then?
Who cares?
Is Ki going to be unnecessary and completely redundant? Youbetcha. It's a given. They might as well add to the other power sources "- except when it's going to result in something Asian-like, because then it's a different power source, despite a likely complete lack of an Asia in your campaign world." Because some people obviously think "it's new, different, and exciting, because it's Asian!" is a perfectly good argument.
But Races and Classes at least implies that the Monk class will be very physical, and can be something other than a seeker-of-enlightenment-and-perfection type, so there's some hope that the archetypes I want will still be possible. Granted, Races and Classes is a very old book, and some of its ideas changed before they were officially printed, but it's the most info we've got on the Monk. And the Barbarian seems to be turning out pretty sweet, despite not being exactly what I was hoping for. So maybe, just maybe, the Monk will turn out okay, despite my concerns about concept distinction.
Glad to see you finally conceded the point.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 3:38PM
#409
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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So, by this point, everyone understands my argument, or at least has stopped listening.
Anyway, I haven't been around for a few days, since, y'know, this isn't very much fun and I went to enjoy myself and play games instead. So I came back with a fresh perspective. And you know what I've decided since then?
Who cares?
Is Ki going to be unnecessary and completely redundant? Youbetcha. It's a given. They might as well add to the other power sources "- except when it's going to result in something Asian-like, because then it's a different power source, despite a likely complete lack of an Asia in your campaign world." Because some people obviously think "it's new, different, and exciting, because it's Asian!" is a perfectly good argument.
But Races and Classes at least implies that the Monk class will be very physical, and can be something other than a seeker-of-enlightenment-and-perfection type, so there's some hope that the archetypes I want will still be possible. Granted, Races and Classes is a very old book, and some of its ideas changed before they were officially printed, but it's the most info we've got on the Monk. And the Barbarian seems to be turning out pretty sweet, despite not being exactly what I was hoping for. So maybe, just maybe, the Monk will turn out okay, despite my concerns about concept distinction.
Congratulations, Matthias. 
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4 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2009 - 4:11PM
#410
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2007
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Glad to see you finally conceded the point.
Haven't conceded a thing. My points are still valid, and poorly refuted. Just decided that I didn't care enough to continue the argument. When are you going to concede that "martial controller" just isn't going to happen?
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