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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 2:32PM
#51
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Zarius Zero: Perhaps Good, and Evil, are the pure variants. The extreme edges. A person who is purely good will do what is right. In the case where what is right isn't what is legal, they will still do what is right (assuming they're good enough to actually warrant the alignment.
A person who is Evil will do what serves them best. They're not in it to cause trouble for trouble's sake, and often don't want to bring trouble on their own heads. So are more likely to work within, and exploit, a system, then rebel against it.
Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are the oddities, in fact. The sidesteps from normal alignments.
A lawful good person still tries to do what is right. .. But they're sometimes willing to sacrifice what is right for what is orderly.
Chaotic Evil, likewise, doesn't much care about anything but causing chaos and torment and pain. There's little care for logic or purpose, however twisted. They just like causing trouble.
That works for me.
Extreme, conscientious Good versus extreme, conscientious Evil.
Lawful Good is thoughtless social-pressure Good.
Chaotic Evil is thoughtless vandalism Evil.
Unaligned is a normal person, who sometimes does nice things and sometimes does crappy things.
Ethical Continuum:
G - LG - U - CE - E
 I am very happy with the above interpretations.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 2:32PM
#52
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2008
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I read somewhere that alignment works more in 4E as it does in the world of Eberron. So maybe they are going away from the stiff constraints that the system used to have and making more of a world view type deal. But even if this is the case, ill be adding back in some of the older alignments for more varied "world views".
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 2:49PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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They *are* providing support for an alignment system.
However, this alignment system is different than 3E and earlier. It's not using Lawful and Chaotic as synonyms for Order vs Freedom on a separate axis from G vs E. They mean something totally different now. There is no "Lawful vs Chaotic axis", and LG isn't "top left" with CE "bottom right" on a grid, with the other three making a column in between.
Evil is evil, but is ultimately self-serving. Chaotic Evil isn't just evil, it also has the agenda of annihilation. Lawful Good is presumably the counterpoint to that, having an agenda beyond merely "Good".
So if you want an "Order vs Freedom" axis in addition to what's already there then you can still have it - but realize that the words Lawful and Chaotic have been appropriated for a wholly different use than what that axis would represent.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 2:50PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2007
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Posted this on ENWorld: You know just thinking, what with the Great Wheel being dead and all, what if the whole idea of alignment being a external idea imposed upon the actions of the PC/NPCs is gone. In its stead replaced by what each individual PC/NPC believes/has had its mind turned to.
So...
Lawful Good: Believes they are proper and "good" by strictly following a set of commands or laws set by themselves or others.
Good: Believes that their way of life is for the betterment of themselves and others.
Unaligned: Follows their own path without any larger consideration of the world, beyond the immediate circumstance.
Evil: Believes that their own personal gain and fortune is proper and above the betterment of any others.
Chaotic Evil: Driven to act out in chaotic manners because of instinctual hatred or fear, or a twisted perversion.
Thus you could have a Chaotic Evil Paladin who serves a "good god" by him being someone who has an instinctual hatred for demon-born.
Or, a Good Villain because he believes the acts he commits is for the betterment of others.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 3:08PM
#55
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> Lawful Good: Believes they are proper and "good" by strictly following a set of
> commands or laws set by themselves or others.
>
> Chaotic Evil: Driven to act out in chaotic manners because of instinctual
> hatred or fear, or a twisted perversion.
And that's where I think people are going wrong. They're equating LG and CE with the 3E and earlier versions, when they mean something entirely different now.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 3:18PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2007
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I just want to make sure I read your sentence right before responding, do you mean what I posted was following the old 3e idea. Or not?
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 3:40PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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Wow, Zarius's take is... really good. If that's actually what WotC did, and kept Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil while ditching Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil not because Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are "true" good and "true" evil but because Lawful Good and Chaotiv Evil are actually the odd alignments out, I could forgive them for this.
On the other hand, I still suspect they went LG-G-U-E-CE with Lawful Good being "more gooder" or "the correct kind of good" or "true good" and similar for Chaotic Evil, which would bother me greatly. If it's actually G-LG-U-CE-E, with Lawful Good effectively being "limited/divided Good" and Chaotic Evil being "Evil that hasn't gotten its crap together" where Good is "unlimited/undivided Good" and Evil is "Evil that can see beyond the end of its nose," that's waaaaay more palatable--but, sadly, it probably isn't what they did. If it actually is Good and Lawful Good side-by-side with Chaotic Good being gone because heroes tend to be a more binary "some hold themselves to what society expects of them, some don't," with neither being considered "more gooder"--and, of course, the opposite for Evil and Chaotic Evil--then that's not quite as good but less horrible.
In any case, if I end up not liking their explanation for why Chaotic Good disappeared, then I put it down on my sheet whenever I please, because that's how we roll.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 3:58PM
#58
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I hate the fact the new 5 alignments method, for two reasons.
One, you can bet there be people who consider LG and CE to be ultra versions of normal good and evil, especially new players.
The second reason, I have no issues seeing all 9 rough areas of alignment seperatly. Nor do I belive that CG any less good than LG or LE any less evil than CE.
My understanding of the 9 alignments.
Lawful = orgnised and ruled by head
Netrual = a mix of both
Chaotic = creative/destructive and ruled by heart
Good = caring and thinking of others
Netrual = caring and thinking of others within own circle of friends/family
Evil = Selfish, thinking of self only
Doctor Whos a good example of a CG hero (especially the latest version) while a police state a good example of a LE force.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 4:02PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2007
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One, you can bet there be people who consider LG and CE to be ultra versions of normal good and evil, especially new players.
This all depends on what the actual definitions for each alignment this time around is. We are looking at this from 3e perspective, the way alignment is defined in 4e could be quite different, ie: my above idea for the new alignment.
In it there can be traditionally good thing like a Paladin who only kills what are deemed "evil monsters" but is Chaotic Evil because of the way that alignment system work.
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5 years ago ::
May 18, 2008 - 4:07PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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Yes, I think it's still holding to the 3E and earlier idea of what "Lawful" and "Chaotic" mean, where the Lawful vs Chaotic axis was separate from the Good vs Evil one and was largely about Order vs Freedom.
Essentially, replace 4E "Lawful Good" with 3E "Exalted" and 4E "Chaotic Evil" with 3E "Vile" and you're looking at a closer thematic match than trying to draw parallels to 3E LG and CE. 3E "Exalted" in could be either 3E-Lawful or 3E-chaotic (Order vs Freedom aligned) and still be just as "Exalted".
Loosely, you're looking at:
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Lawful Good: Preserves creation from the forces which would rend it asunder.
Good: Believes that their way of life is for the betterment of themselves and others.
Unaligned: Follows their own path without any larger consideration of the world, beyond the immediate circumstance.
Evil: Believes that their own personal gain and fortune is proper and above the betterment of any others.
Chaotic Evil: Driven to destroy all that exists.
--
While CE is *likely* to be wild and violent, it isn't necessarily so. Some of the elemental titans in particular could well be 3E Lawful in their philosophy, it's just that that philosophy includes the impermanence or continuing transformation (perhaps in a very orderly fashion, at that) of creation - much to the detriment of mortals.
Likewise, the LG defenders of creation are probably just as likely to believe in personal freedom over societal order as the other way around, so they're probably equally likely to be 3E Lawful or 3E Chaotic, despite the 4E name of "Lawful Good".
Edit: In other words, think of the 4E alignment axis like this:
Preserver - Good - Unaligned - Evil - Destroyer
Except that "Preserver" and "Destroyer" are clumsy so they just purloined "LG" and "CE" to placehold for them - *despite* the fact that doing so was bound to cause confusion.
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