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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 7:58AM
#221
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2005
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I'd say getting those other powers (without the synergistic class features the original class has) while losing powers of your own class is diluting things a bit.
Well, to be precise, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that in 3.5, it has been stated by the developers that the multiclassing system diluted single-classed characters. Case in point: the ranger. What does it "mean" to be a ranger in D&D? Well, in 3.5, at least, a single-classed ranger is either an expert archer or two-weapon fighter with a favored enemy and a faithful animal companion. Unfortunately, because of the way multiclassing works, the developers were forced to shift a lot of the ranger's key features - combat style, animal companion, etc. to later levels in the class, because otherwise every multiclassed character would be able to simply dip into 1 level of ranger and have everything they really needed.
Effectively, if you start playing as a ranger, you're missing half of the features that make you a "ranger" and won't get them for a few more levels, in large part because the class had to be gimped to try to balance it for multiclassing. You can see similar effects if you look at the 3.0 paladin or monk and compare them to their 3.5 counterparts - "core" class features were shifted away because letting the class start out with them make the class too attractive for cherry-picking.
The new 4E multiclassing system doesn't let you gain every single class feature of your secondary class... but it gives you some key ones, and you can make up much of the rest with feats. The Fighter multiclass feat, for example, gives you a mark 1/encounter but doesn't quite give you the AC or hitpoints to match... but the Armor Training feat and Toughness can get you there if you really want to be more of a Defender. But meanwhile, you're still gaining all of your core class abilities (which, if you want to multiclass further, you can trade for equivalent-level ones from your secondary class,) and someone playing the class you're dipping into can start playing like that class from level 1.
And getting those powers from another class is far less diluted than it often was in 3.5. If a 10th-level fighter in 3.5 wants to dip into wizard, he's screwed - one or two levels won't give him any useful spells because they either deal far too little damage to be worthwhile against CR 10 foes, the save DCs are too low for CR 10 enemies to have any chance of failing, and the side effects of most other spells are subsumed by his equipment at that level. He'll never catch up because he's already 10 levels behind on getting the useful stuff, and the further he goes into wizard, the more worthless he becomes as a fighter because his BAB is no longer progressing fast enough. In 4E multiclassing, if the fighter decides to pick up some wizard abilities, they'll match the level he needs them at.
3.5 multiclassing was a system that managed to simultaneously weaken classes for fear of broken combinations, and still make many combinations utterly worthless.
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 10:18AM
#222
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2004
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You don't need to multi class in Fourth Ed unless you need the powers for concept reasons.
For what other reason would you multi-class?
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 12:16PM
#223
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2003
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NthDegree256, I get where you're coming from and I agree. I was just thinking your comment was in regards to the claim that even if you multiclass in 4E, you will keep staying effective in your chosen role (which you also touch upon in your last post). And that is what I intend to put to the test with my first character.
cheers
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 12:30PM
#224
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2007
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For what other reason would you multi-class?
In 3.x? Hit points.
—fo diggity
Twitter: www.twitter.com/fodigg
Comic Books You Should Have Read: http://tinyurl.com/ycxe9l7
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 5:18PM
#225
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2004
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In 3.x? Hit points.
can you provide an example?
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 5:28PM
#226
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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can you provide an example?
wizard.. 1d4 hp per level.... Fighter, 1d8. Dble hp.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 5:31PM
#227
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- Stampeding Hybrid
- Dragon Slayer
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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wizard.. 1d4 hp per level.... Fighter, 1d8. Dble hp.
And then upon multiclassing, you roll a 1 for HP and curse the heavens for your horrid luck.
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 5:50PM
#228
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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If your DM doesn't have a house rule for re rolling when the roll for HP is less then half, then I feel for you.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 7:43PM
#229
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2004
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wizard.. 1d4 hp per level.... Fighter, 1d8. Dble hp.
Actually a fighter has d10, and mechanically speaking, taking a level of fighter just for the HP difference is pretty dumb. For all of 3 HP and a fighter feat, you give up a caster level. Ands what i don't understand about the hate being thrown at multiclass builds. The only reason to multiclass is becuase it helps your character be better at whatever it is they are doing. Basically becuase it adds to your concept, or shores up a weakness, which also adds to your concept. Unless of course your concept is gimp, but then what the heck are you adventuring for? Honestly, if all one cared about was power, then they'd be hard pressed to find a reason to play anything other then druid 20.
This bring me to another point. I didn't really like the multiclassing system in 3.x. It felt like a striaght jacket, that chaffed. However i was able to fix certian aspects of it, whcih made it less so. 4e seems to have made all the things i hated about the multiclass system worse. Instead of being more open, its more restrictive. Instead of allowing more concepts to be made, it allows for less. In summery it has not only failed to solve all of the issues i had with 3.x's multicalls system, it has made them worse.
Telling me that 3.x MC sucked does nothing at all. It's like 4e was newer version of a car. But this version has a smaller boot. Now for some that may be a benefit, but if you thought that the older version's boot was too small to begin with, then the newer version's smaller boot isn't a feature it is a bug.
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5 years ago ::
May 14, 2008 - 8:20PM
#230
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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I can agree that it is stupid to Multi Class just for hit points. I was just making clear that it is a valid concern. The rules for Multi Classing is a lot better than it was in 2nd edition, and the racial limits for classes were taken away, as well as the Druid max level of 13 unless becoming a leader of a contenent, or something.
I do think that to much is gained, and that the pentilies for exp for levels being to far apart is not enough of a deterant.
Good bye Favored classes, good bye kitchen sink. Good Riddance.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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