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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A My concerns about at-will, encounter and daily...
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Switch to Forum Live View My concerns about at-will, encounter and daily powers
5 years ago  ::  May 05, 2008 - 11:42PM #1
brassbaboon
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 1,393
I am really trying hard to remain optimistic about the 4e version, and I have pre-purchased the books so I will be able to start digging into the game play with a vengeance in about a month (or exactly a month depending on how long it takes me to type this comment...)

More and more I am coming to the conclusion that the game designers had a mandate to "do something about" the broken parts of the game, and from what I've seen, one of the things they considered "broken" was the discrepancy between spell users and non-spell users when it comes to game-changing powers.

In 3.5e (and all previous versions that I've played) there has been a qualitative as well as a quantitative difference between spell casters and non spell casters. The most obvious example of this is that non spell casters typically had a few reasonably powerful options that never ran out. They could swing their +4 sword or shoot their +2 bow essentially forever. This gave them a moderate power output that was predictable and reliable. The spell casters were diametrically opposed. They typically had a huge selection of powerful options to choose from, but a very limited number of "slots" to put them in. Their abilities were vastly more powerful than the non spell caster's options, but they were also much less reliable, much less predictable, and they ran out quickly. Even so some of the spells that did exist were so off-the-scale that when they worked, they essentially broke the game.

The "solution" to this dilemma that the 4e designers came up with was to give everyone BOTH types of attacks. Wizards and clerics get the same number of at-will, encounter and daily abilities as the fighter does, and they are more or less equally powerful. Now spell casters have exactly that reliable, predictable and unlimited power that they lacked, and fighters have now gained a limited number of game-changing powers of their own. That's been the holy grail of the game designers, perhaps best summarized as "leave no role behind."

I understand this, I understand why they did this and I understand more and more each day HOW they did this.

And it is possible that when it comes to playing the game, I will be OK with it.

But right now it feels wrong. The 4e approach of making everyone the same is no doubt much better balanced, and much easier to keep track of (some of my higher level wizards had over a hundred spells to choose from each morning...), but does it make sense from a historic, traditional or fantasy perspective?

This whole idea of "daily powers" that a wizard chooses being restricted to four powers at level 20 just seems to be completely at odds with the whole concept of what a wizard is and does. Similarly the ability for a level 20 fighter to somehow once per day do something really cool with his sword is just as bizarre as the wizard basically only being able to know four big-time spells. When you back up and look at the design from 20,000 feet it sure looks like the "solution" to the 3.5e situation ends up with significantly enhancing the non spell casters; abilities, while at the same time vastly reducing the spell casters' abilities.

So to play 4e as a wizard, I have to accept that no matter how much study a wizard may undertake, he will be limited to a very restrictive number of game-changing spells that he can cast only once per encounter, or even worse once per day.

Again, I understand this as a game mechanic, but I am having a very hard time seeing this as a believable model for MAGIC itself. It makes sense from the perspective of defining and balancing arbitrary roles that the game designers felt were necessary, but it doesn't really seem to make sense from any other perspective.

What is funny about this is that I can just see me having a conversation with the game designers about this going something like this:

Me: "See, the thing is, you've pretty much nerfed the wizard, and cleric by taking all the unique and powerful things that MADE them wizards and clerics, cutting it down by an order of magnitude (or more) and turning what little you left to them into just another combat tactic."

Game Designers: "Yep! Isn't it great?"

Me: "Well, no, not really. Actually not at all. See, what very, very little you have left for them to do, you also gave to the non spell casters too. So there's really no difference now in being a wizard and being a ranger. They do the same basic things, the only difference is how the things are described."

GD: "Youve GOT IT! Isn't it great?"

Me: "NO! It's not great. Now what you've got is not wizards, clerics, fighters and rogues, what you've got is a bunch of people with more or less identical capabilities whose only difference now is the role you have pushed them into. A spell-casting "striker" is not significantly different than a non spell-casting "striker". They both have more or less the same capabilities, they just use different words to describe how it happens."

GD: "That was our master stroke, right there. That solved all the game balance problems, stopped the arbitrary ability to create god-like characters and allowed us to control the balance of the game completely."

Me: "But it means that everyone is the same, the only difference is their position in combat and their flavor text. Your 'wizard' is not a 'wizard' by any description I've ever heard of. He's just a guy who does area of effect damage at a distance."

And on and on...

I'm sure I'm not getting it. That there are compelling reasons to play a wizard still.

See, I LIKED poring over my spellbook. That made me feel like a wizard. "Let's see, what spells do I want today... One from column A, two from column B..." That image of the studious wizard in the corner of the cave poring over his carefully tended spell book, while the cleric sat nearby communing with his deity to gather his powers for the day, that made sense to me. It felt like a fantasy setting.

The more I learn about 4e, the more concerned I am that all of that will be lost, sacrificed to the altar of "game balance".

One more month, and I'll know if these concerns are valid or not. But right now I am very concerned about the game turning into interchangeable game pieces with a lot of flowery text paper-clipped to them, but their actual function in the game is limited to a very few things that are more or less identical whether they are spells, prayers or exploits. At root, I am afraid that the designers were so successful at balancing the game, that they made everyone exactly the same, except for that paper-clipped text that nobody really wants to read.

Sigh, shouldn't do these posts so late at night...
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 12:04AM #2
TheAnthroDM
Date Joined: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 622
So to put it in simpler terms. You've either:

A) Never played a noncaster in 3e and realized how monotonous and mundane it is to do the exact same thing round after round while not really contributing to the encounter at all because the Save or Die is gonna hit anytime now, rendering your HP damage useless.

Or

B) Never really played a spellcaster that did anything but blasting, because if you had you would have realized that from level 1 you can completely destroy your opponents and the fighters opponent without having to break a sweat.

Something tells me you play spellcasters a lot. Because, you seem to enjoy a system that basically looks at noncasters and says "**** you!" and then bows down to the insane save or die DC of spellcasters.

A thought occurs, the only way to build a spellcaster who anything in 3e is to have a huge arsenal of Save-or-Die spells. Therefore, you don't only want monotony in the hands of the fighter, you want it in the spellcaster, you just want them to create a variety of flashy effects..

Wait... flashy effects, that sounds a lot like the flavor text you were complaining about earlier. Since that's all the flashy effects are and the mechanics just come down to "Save or Die"

Okay. I see your problems, and understand where you're coming from.

Solutions:

A)Keep playing 3.5e.
B) Come to the conclusion that your logic is in fact backasswards and play 4e

Either way, have fun. 4e seems to be about balanced mechanics and roleplaying possibilities, 3e is about ridiculous synergies, monotony, powergaming and roleplaying possibilities. Whatever floats your boat.
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 12:06AM #3
Titanium_Dragon
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 7,765
The problem is that someone who can do stuff only per day, and someone else who can only do stuff at will, can never be balanced against one another. If you make the per day stuff stronger, then they're broken as they spend all their abilities, then basically cripple the party and force them to rest because if they don't the party is down a character, so they are always stronger than their teammates. If you make the per day stuff the same power level as the at will stuff, then the per day people suck because they run out of power and force resting just the same as before, but are strictly worse than the at-will people because they CAN run out of power.

More to the point, why should spells be daily? There is no answer to that, in fact; there's no reason why magic should be more tiring or less repeatable than normal stuff. So everyone working on the same system makes sense in that regard. It also makes sense in terms of game balance.

So basically there's no real complaint here; you have an unreasonable expectation of daily only on the part of the wizard. There are tons of other ways to differentiate characters beyond how often they can use their abilities, and they're better because they don't lead to people being felt left out or one class of character always being better than another.
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 12:18AM #4
Grazel
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2008
Posts: 902
Also wizards still have spellbooks and during extended rest they can swap out their 'daily' powers with others from their spellbook. In this way you still have a remnant of the vancian magic system by limiting how many daily powers they have 'readied' at a time but the spellbook lets them swap out their daily powers during a rest so some other set is readied.

Also a lot of the old wizard spells weren't directly combat related and in 4e have been moved over to rituals instead of powers. Also with a lifting in the vancian system you no longer need a ton of spells as you don't have to worry about filling out memorized spell slots for 9 levels of power.

Also a lot of the 3.x feats for melee characters are now powers and feats are more overall bonuses rather than combat maneuvers freeing up melee characters to spend their feats on things that aren't so situationally restricted.
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 12:46AM #5
TempestBlade24
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 73
brassbaboon I can understand your fears, though I do not share them.

Compared to the vast majority of people, I haven't been playing 3.5 (or D&D as a whole) very long. However even in my short time I noticed a problem with the spell-casters (specifically Wiz+Sorc).

The idea of limiting powers makes sense; if the Wiz can use "Fireball" every turn, that pretty much makes combat a boring (if flamly) affair.

So of course you're encouraged to limit your powers, which is a good idea. But the problem that arose in our group was two scenarios reoccurring:

1) Wiz uses the vast majority of his powers in one or two combats; why not just rest now? He's pretty much useless, the player won't have much fun, the group could use some healing, so why not?

2) If in a situation where resting is not possible (say a Dungeon for example) this means that the Wiz has to stretch his powers out over (lets say) 20 rooms. This makes for a large amount of low BAB attacks, with normally weak weaponry. This isn't the most fun in the world for the Wiz, but we all understood the reasoning.

I am greatly looking forward to 4E's mechanic of everyone having Daily Powers. This will mean that rather than the 9-5 Swinging-his-sword-again-and-again working man Fighter and the 5 minute Destroys-Everything-In-Sight-Then-Hides Wizard; you will have a compromise.

All classes will have there moment in the sun, but no class will have to sit in the dark afterwards.
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 4:34AM #6
Steely_Dan
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 8,628
All I have to say is this is actually one of the first reasonable concerns I have seen about 4th Ed, not knee-jerk/panty-bunching.

Good job, brassbaboon.
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 4:41AM #7
runestar
Date Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Posts: 3,490

The idea of limiting powers makes sense; if the Wiz can use "Fireball" every turn, that pretty much makes combat a boring (if flamly) affair.


I am wondering if that may be the case in 4e as well. The current combat setup seems to encourage me to open up with an encounter power, then spend an action point to use an at-will power (or daily if I am facing a particularly tough solo foe or the BBEG). In subsequent rounds, it is simply a case of using whatever actions I have to spam whichever powers are the most effective.

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 5:02AM #8
senorcoo
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 92
I agree with the original poster that it made one feel more like a wizard by pouring over multiple pages of spells, but that didn't mean it was fun :D
I too am looking forward to the balance and especially the game's streamlining in general. I know I'm not saying anything that has been said before on here, but the power creep at higher levels was ridiculous and it took the Christmas Tree effect to balance encounters, which in our group, left us with about 2 fights during which the PC's would exhaust HP's and supplies and then have to rest. This new system seems to be in line with true fantasy. I think the power system works well both for non-casters by making them more effective as well as casters by balancing their power level which tended to get WAY out of wack at higher levels in 3.x.
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 5:13AM #9
Steely_Dan
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 8,628

senorcoo wrote:

I agree with the original poster that it made one feel more like a wizard by pouring over multiple pages of spells


Yeah, in some ways the days as starting as a glorified cobbler (1st level) and ending up as a demigod (13th level + or so) will be sort of missed, but I'm all for the toning down of the cryptically fantastic.

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 5:37AM #10
Nom
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 2,096

runestar wrote:

I am wondering if that may be the case in 4e as well. The current combat setup seems to encourage me to open up with an encounter power, then spend an action point to use an at-will power (or daily if I am facing a particularly tough solo foe or the BBEG). In subsequent rounds, it is simply a case of using whatever actions I have to spam whichever powers are the most effective.


I'm not convinced.

I think things will be different at low vs high levels. At level 1, a PC has 1 encounter + 1 daily power, plus any extras from their class. By level 20, they've accumulated at least 4 of each, plus utility powers. This gives a lot more options in higher level play.

And many of the encounter (and daily) powers are conditional. There's a certain advantage in opening up with a powerful attack from the word go. There's also an advantage in spending a couple of rounds manoeuvering the bad guys into a position to make best effect of your encounter powers. As PCs rise in levels, I wouldn't be surprised to see them picking a mix of "first strike" and "opportunistic" encounter powers.

Hopefully 4E contains sufficient vareity of terrain and foes that PC teams can't rely too much on a "standard opening", needing to adapt to the situation.


Admittedly, the Black Dragon encounter did eventually degenerate into "pick the best at-will and repeat". But that was a level 4 solo encounter at level 1, which limits the options for dynamic tactics (PCs have fewer choices, only 1 big monster) after the first 10 or so rounds.

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