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5 years ago ::
Apr 29, 2008 - 11:34PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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If that's the best they can come up with for a multiclassing system them I am sorely disappointed. Training feats ilimited to ONE class.
What happened to the oft-mentioned deeper multiclassing system? What of the playtest warlord who was taking levels of wizard? It has always been the case that multiclassing *could* be acheived via feats in 4e, but more importantly that wasn't to be the only way.
I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but the multiclassing mechanic was the one that would make or break the system for me. I'm still reserving judgement until I see the final product, but it's not looking good.
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5 years ago ::
Apr 29, 2008 - 11:39PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class.
Epiphany. This was confusing for about an hour, but I think I finally get it. It's awkwardly worded, but makes some sense.
Let's say you're level 15, and you have this setup. And your level 7 encounter power is a Fighter power, but you're a rogue.
Class Level Encounter Powers Daily Powers Utility Powers
15th P, 13, 7, 3 15, 9, 5 P, 10, 6, 2 Then let's say you hit level 17, and you trade out your level 3 encounter power and pick up one of the highest level you can learn, level 17. At every level you gain, your 'multiclass' power(s) get reset, and you get to make the choice of what power to swap out again. Class Level Encounter Powers Daily Powers Utility Powers
17th P, 17, 13, 7 15, 9, 5 P, 16, 10, 6, 2 So now, your level 7 encounter power is a rogue power again, and you decide to lose that level 13 power in favor of a fighter power, thus advancing in fighter power and getting some of your older rogue power back... It's oddly worded but it makes sense after a fashion.
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 12:28AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2006
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Meh, I don't have very strong opinions about this particular issue really.
On the one hand, it seems very limited, but on the other hand, it is supposed to be limited. They've said they want a "pure" classed character to be stronger than one who dips into multiple fields. That is how it should be after all; you trade in raw power for versatility.
The way I read this article, and from other things I've read, it seems to me that there will really be TWO forms of "multiclassing." EDIT: BTW at the time of this writing, the pictures are not visible, so it may turn out there was more info in the pics.
One way is by taking the feats as the article describes: you can do this at relatively low level if you meet the prereqs and gain a power and skill from another class. If you take more feats in it, perhaps you can take multiple different powers.
The other way would be by replacing your Paragon path at level 11 with a possibly watered-down version of a Base class levels 1-10 instead of Paragon 11-20. It's quite possible that if you took a multiclass "Feat," then your multiclass Paragon path has to be the same class you have the feat from though.
Someone mentioned that this system is a net decrease in power because it takes a feat to take an ability of a level you can already use: that is still the point of multiclassing in general. By using a feat to choose from a different class's abilities, you are sacrificing your specialization for versatility.
Think of it this way: In 3.5, if you had a feat which could give your Cleric a single Wizard spell for a single Cleric spell of the same level or less, and you could switch your choice each level, that would actually be a pretty darn good feat wouldn't it? There are also feats in ToB that just grant you a single maneuver 1/encounter, and you can't go around changing it whenever you want. It isn't the most popular feat choice, but some people still like it for the versatility.
It seems to me actually that these multiclass feats are maybe too powerful, and not actually a trade off. By also granting you a skill you may not be trained in, it is similar to maxxing out your skill each level (skills raise automatically in 4.0). So not only do you get to choose a power which may be very advantageous or interesting, you also get more skills. I can't really speak to how powerful feats are in general, but I can't really imagine them being much more powerful than a multiclass feat.
This may actually work out quite nicely, if you can "wait" until 11th level for more robust multiclassing (still conjecture on my part).
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19670890/Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_Character_Errata
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 6:28AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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I'm one who totally DESPISES multi-classing. Mainly, because it can lead to people trying to cherry pick classes that make no sense just to grab the best abilities. I think this is something WOTC is trying to get away from like what they are doing with magic items. They don't want PC's to become diluted copies of each other. Oh, you have X feat and Y power? Me too! I agree that the PC that stays true to their class should be more powerful than the one that dabbles. I also agree with the previous poster who said that this is the price of versatility. One class baby! Pick it and stick with it!
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 6:38AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2006
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hmm, am I disappointed?
somehow, yes.
what do we lose?
- freedom of choice
- that's all? for example: sneak attack once per encounter? no more weapon
training for mc-ing into fighter?
what do we gain?
- a "class 1" still is effective in "class 1", while having a little bit of "class 2"
- no more level 3/2/1/5/2 cherrypicking builds
time will tell...
I don't think our freedom of choice is gone. I do think our choices are a bit more limited, now. However, considering that the classes have so many different build options, I'm not really so sure that any character concept will be lacking.
As for the loss of weapons training...well, to each their own. Instead of moving over to a class and gaining proficiency in nearly all weapons and armor (something that makes little to no sense in both fluff and game balance), we'll have to sacrifice a feat or two to gain what we want. It seems fair to me. Ranger is no longer a 1 - 4 level dabble class. Fighter is no longer a 2 level dabble class and so on.
I have a feeling that this will work out well. I just hope there are more multiclassing feats to choose from. Also, as pointed out earlier, automatically gaining +5 in another skill along with a couple of powers is a powerful thing not to be dismissed.
EDIT: I'm not picking on you or anything. Your post just seemed to stand out to me for some reason.
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 6:58AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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I have mixed feelings about the new multiclass system.
On the one side it does limit the choices we have in trying to create powerful characters. The two class limit thing sounds interesting...however the article did not seem to explain what happens when I take a level in rogue after taking 4 levels in ranger (other than the hint about the paragon stuff)
On the other side it sounds like WoTC wants to make everyone viable and limit the amount of min-maxing needed.
I think that character optimization will be combos of powers rather than combos of classes which starts to make things more like creating a Magic deck than going through a ton of books and loop-holes to create pun-pun...
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 7:51AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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First off, I agree with those with mixed feelings. We were told there'd be "true" multiclassing, but it seems we'll have to wait 'till 11th level to see how true that is.
But to play devil's advocate, I also agree that the sacrifice of power for versatility can be a fair exchange. And regarding the feats merely "replacing" a power you already have, this is more a semantics argument.
Though you are replacing one power with another, another way of looking at it is just that you can choose your new powers from a new source. If you have the Novice Power feat, then when you get a 4th level power, you can choose it from either class list (provided you retrain previous powers so as to have only one power from the "additional" class.
While it may not seem worth a feat to say "I lose a fighter power and gain a cleric power of equal level," it sounds much more worth it to say "I can choose my next power from either the fighter or wizard list." Especially when you add "I can retrain every level to ensure that my highest level power is from whichever class I choose."
On a final note (and back to my mixed feelings) my interpretation of the power feats is this: Novice Power grants an encounter power from an additional class. The feat can be taken at any level, but the power granted by the feat cannot be higher than 4th level. Acolyte Power does the same, but for utility powers and the power can't be higher than 8th. Adept for dailies with a max power level of 10th.
This is just an interpretation. Does anyone know differently? Or are other guesses just that - guesses and interpretation?
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 7:54AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Sep 27, 2005
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...however the article did not seem to explain what happens when I take a level in rogue after taking 4 levels in ranger (other than the hint about the paragon stuff)...
I think that's the point; you can't take a level in Rogue after taking 4 levels in Ranger. Instead, you are a Rogue who takes Feats to gain some of the Ranger's abilities (or vice versa). The more feats you devote to taking on Ranger-type abilities, the more versatile you become, until you're basically a Rogue/Ranger. This is, of course, presumably at the cost of not being able to use those feat slots to further enhance your Rogue abilities.
AIUI, this is how stuff is going to work in the Heroic tier. I'm less clear on what happens in the Paragon tier. It says that you can multiclass in the Paragon tier instead of taking on a Paragon class, but I haven't seen any details of what that means specifically yet.
In the abstract, I think all this stuff sounds like a good idea. IMHO, the 3.x multiclass system has gotten too complex and prone to abuse. But I agree that the Multiclass Preview released to today is very light on details. And the devil is, as always, in the details. . .
*Shrug* I'm open to trying something new. And if it sucks, I can just go back to playing 3.5. Heck, there are folks out there still playing 1st ed. I've long since bartered my 1st ed. books away, but I certainly don't look down on those who prefer it and are still playing it. To each their own.
Cheers,
EQ17.
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 8:04AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2006
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Sounds fine. The days of cherry picking are evidently over... and good riddance!
Haiku Police
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5 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2008 - 8:10AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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What happened to the oft-mentioned deeper multiclassing system?
There's still the "multiclass instead of taking a paragon path" option, which has been mentioned twice but not detailed yet.
Like a few others, I suspect that such multiclassing will follow a similar progression to the paragon paths themselves -- take an appropriate power of the second class in each of your paragon power slots, and possibly gain some full-use class features in place of the level 11 paragon path features.
What of the playtest warlord who was taking levels of wizard?
Didn't that playtester actually say that his warlord had "picked up some wizard powers"? Which is actually what this system allows. The idea of taking levels in two different classes was something the readers incorrectly concluded based on 3rd edition assumptions.
If you can find a place where he actually said he was taking levels in wizard, then presumably the multiclassing system changed between then and now, much as "second wind" used to be a minor action for everyone (with dwarves apparently getting 2/encounter) but was changed through playtesting to be a standard action for most characters and a minor for dwarves.
Deadstop
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