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Solik wrote:

Let's say I do not take a multiclass power-swap feat. I can choose from, say, 4 of my class powers at levelup.

Now let's say I do take a multiclass power-swap feat. I can now choose from 4 of the class powers of my multiclass.

I do not get to choose from 8 powers. I get one set or the other, depending on whether or not I take the feat.

Ok, I know we're just dealing with a snippet of the rules and possibly not the full text, but where did you get that?

The way I was understanding it is that say at your 10th level you have 3 encounter powers, lvl 7, 3 and 1. When you take the "novice power" feat you aren't forced to swap out any one of those, but given the choice to swap out any of those three for a power from your new class instead of your original one. So if you had four options for your lvl 7 power from your first class, and four options from your second class, for that lvl 7 power you can choose any of those 8 powers. The only catch is that one one of your three encounter powers can be from the second class. And if you decide that this level you don't want any of the powers from your second class you can just retrain out of the feat for the moment and take all powers from your 1st class.

Thats the way I'm understanding it, is your understanding different? Because if thats the way it is I really don't see how your selection for a given power doesn't increase.

"NobodyRemembersThis"]Gamers that decide to !@#$%@#$ with the rules without bothering to learn them first are doomed to screw up the game.

I agree. That would be why I explicitly stated "when the full rules are there to play with."

Gamers that decide to !@#$%@#$ with the rules without bothering to learn them first are doomed to screw up the game.[/quote]
I agree. That would be why I explicitly stated "when the full rules are there to play with."

"edge2k2"]Let me then jump in and point out that I also think you are wrong.

Let me point out that you are arguing a subjective opinion. You disagree with me. That's fine. Happens all the time when people have opinions.

If I said "this system allows me to multiclass 3 classes at once," I would be wrong. If I said "I think this system allows me to make overpowered characters because it lets you do (X) and (X) is overpowered," then, assuming X is true, that would simply be my opinion. You might not think X is overpowered yourself, but that would depend on your playstyle and how you judge "power" in the game.

Let me then jump in and point out that I also think you are wrong.[/quote]
Let me point out that you are arguing a subjective opinion. You disagree with me. That's fine. Happens all the time when people have opinions.

If I said "this system allows me to multiclass 3 classes at once," I would be wrong. If I said "I think this system allows me to make overpowered characters because it lets you do (X) and (X) is overpowered," then, assuming X is true, that would simply be my opinion. You might not think X is overpowered yourself, but that would depend on your playstyle and how you judge "power" in the game.

Adding powers rather then replacing powers is an imbalance.

True. Good thing nobody has suggested this.

If it takes you 6 classes (and yes prestige classes are classes with their own sets of abilities) then your concept is simply a flavor of godling.

I'll tell that to the next Fighter 3 / Bard 4 / Sorcerer 3 / Cleric 1 / Barbarian 2 / Binder 1 that I see. I'm sure he'll be thrilled to learn that he's a godling.

It is absurb in thinking that every choice should net a numerical gain.

What?

Every choice made on levelup should net a numerical gain. I mean, that's common sense. That's sort of what levelup is all about.

And "versatility" is a numerical gain. It's just different numbers.

"Jetstream"]Y'know, considering how you behave in arguments, I'm not even going to refute anything you've said.

Pot, meet kettle. Also, this is flamebaiting. Against the rules. Might want to avoid it in the future.

Y'know, considering how you behave in arguments, I'm not even going to refute anything you've said.[/quote]
Pot, meet kettle. Also, this is flamebaiting. Against the rules. Might want to avoid it in the future.

I will say this, however: When your "fixing" the "stupid crap" either A: Shatters the game system over its knee or B: Does nothing useful worth speaking of... Let us know, okay? I think it'll be entertaining.

I'm fairly confident my replacement system will allow for the creation of godlike characters. This doesn't bother me. I've never had anyone attempt to create such a character in my games before, and I've never attempted to make one myself, even though one only needs take a visit to Theoretical Character Optimization to see what can be done.

I would prefer to be able to build a replacement system that wouldn't allow for godlike characters. Unfortunately, for this to be possible, the core class system would have had to be designed with flexible multiclassing in mind. Since this was not done (according to Mearls), the only option is to crack it open, allowing for the possibility of broken characters, and relying on the same social constraints that we've been using with no problems in 3rd edition.

It won't be for everyone. Clearly it won't be for you.

"glimeral"]If that is how you are both understanding the rules, you are understanding them correctly.

At level 10, Novice Power allows you to swap out either your L7, L3, or L1 encounter power (your choice) for a power of equal or lower level from your cross-class.

Alternatively, at level 10, you have the option of retraining your Novice Power feat for something different.

This is a wee bit disingenuous. If I take the Novice Power feat, I choose from my other class's abilities. If I do not take the Novice Power feat, I choose from my own class's abilities. The fact that I can choose not to take the Novice Power feat does not mean I effectively have the selection of powers from both lists. This would be the same as assuming that a character can choose any power in the game (of appropriate level) at a given level by taking the multiclass feat and Novice Power feat. Amusingly, one can then conclude that someone who has not yet taken a multiclass feat is more versatile than someone who has because o wrote: