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Blending in abilities from two classes in a system that uses the same progression for every character sounds exactly like multiclassing. So, by not being allowed to increase your power level above a straight class is "restricting creativity". Really?

See, there is a logical disconnect on many things. The classes now only provide a baseline role and individual abilities. EVERYTHING ELSE is a function of character level. Let's go over what is a class and not a class ability.

CHARACTER ABILITIES
Attack Bonus
Defense Bonus
Attribute increases
Feats
Powers Known

CLASS ABILITIES
Starting Weapon proficiencies
Starting Armor proficiencies
Starting Trained Skills
Starting Class Features
Powers Selected

ROLE ABILITIES*
HP
Healing Surges
*Since classes across power sources have the same progression if the role is the same, I conclude that HP and surges are role based, not class based.

As you can see, classes have only 2 abilities that can not be gained through "normal" feats - the actual powers selected. And the Multiclassing feats allow those abilities to be acquired. What more do you want from the multiclassing?

CobaltTheBlueKnight wrote:

I just wanted to point out that you cannot retrain your primary clas. Sorry if someone else pointed this out already. You could not retrain being a Ranger and become a Wizard. You could, however, retrain a class training feat, forsaking everything you learned in your second class to pick up something different.

Lets say that, for example, you were playing a Rogue who had fallen in with a bad crowd and had picked up the training feat for Warlock, and a few of the power-swap feats. Later on, your "friends" abandon you so they can escape a harrowing situation, leaving you to fend for yourself. You are shown mercy by an honorable paladin who protects you and converts you back to the ways of good (not saying warlocks are evil, this is just an illustration). After travelling with the paladin for a while, studying under him, and avoiding using your warlock abilities you (when you gain a new level) forsake everything you learned as a warlock to become a paladin like your savior (you retrained the warlock training feat to gain the paladin training feat).

Since, when you gain a new level, all your power-swapped powers reset back to your primary class, you could keep all those feats, taking paladin powers instead. Do you forget how to be a Warlock? Somewhat, but you know how easy it is to fall back to that path.

Just retrain the feat again.

Thanks didn't know you couldn't retrain your primary class. Must be a lot different to the 3.5 edition version.
Is there a link to the retraining rules?

Still have the problem with the rogue never being able to more than dabble in paladin or warlock abilities though. He's pretty much forced to continue gaining rogue abilities even if he now considers them dishonorable.

Will be trying out 4th edition with my mates but I still think its too restrictive in chase of the coveted ideal "balance". And in all honesty any balance that exists in the initial release will slowly be removed by additional splatbooks.

To be honest my group is pretty self-policing. You can count on the DM or me when I DM to go "Thats a cool trick I've got to get a monster to try it".

As I've seen quoted about the boards "Its not so much as a DnD magical arms race as a DnD magical geneva convention :D"

Justaidan wrote:

Thanks didn't know you couldn't retrain your primary class. Must be a lot different to the 3.5 edition version.

3.5's retraining rules, as described in the PHB 2, didn't allow you to change your class, either. You could only retrain a feat, 5 skill points, a class feature selection (i.e. a domain, a favored enemy, etc.), or.... something else, I think, but I can't remember. A known spell, perhaps.

3.5's PHB 2 also included rebuilding rules. Rebuilding let you change your base class or even your race entirely, but it was not something you could just do on a whim as you leveled up - your DM had to make a quest out of it, and I think the two example quests they provided both involved exposing your character to a powerful source of supernatural energy.

InkBlot wrote:

The various incarnations of Link were damn hard to stat up in 3.5e. I tried, a lot. None of them had any Bard levels. The only Link who worked out well at all was the Link from Twilight Princess. He's a Ranger/Warblade, plain and simple.*

Ah, I left out Warblade because I was sticking to 3.5 core classes, but that's a good point - the Warblade's maneuvers are much better at representing TP Link's abilities.

From what I've seen of 4e so far, Link will be easier, or at least no more difficult, to stat up in 4e. The Ritual Casting feat makes it possible to duplicate the magic ocarina songs, without saddling the build with lots of spells Link never had. The class training feats makes it possible to give your Link build exactly the small handful of powerful spells some Links have, without also giving him lots of low-level spells none of them ever had. The unified base attack bonus, base defense bonus, the ability to easily make any skill a "class skill," and the ability to defeat traps without being a Rogue, means each Link can have his martial prowess and dungeon delving skills regardless of whether you start him as a Rogue, Ranger, Fighter, Warlock, or Wizard.

Excellent points all around.

The problem of how to represent Link's sword beam ability seems to still be present in 4e, unfortunately. I'd stat it up as an at-will basic ranged attack which you can't use after being bloodied. But who knows? Maybe the Warlock will have that exact ability. Or maybe you could just take Warlock or Wiz training, and say that you can only use your at-will ranged magic attack once per encounter because you can't line up another shot before being hit yourself.

Personally, I'd stat it up as a feature of the Master Sword, not Link himself.

*Alternatively, if your DM allows feats from WotC's web enhancements, he could be a single classed Warblade with the Wild Cohort feat. Then you'd just have to chalk up the psuedo-lycanthropy to an actual curse, instead of using the Ranger spell aspect of the wolf.

Heh, clever. Maybe once PHB2 comes out, if the Druid multiclass feat grants shapeshifting, we'll decide that Fighter with a slight Druid dip is the best way to make a TP Link.