(1) This sort of extended multi-encounter is the exception, rather than the norm. Attempting to design specific mechanics for every exception that you can think of leads to bloated and unuseable rulesets.
You mean like 3.5 and every edition before that was unuseable?
Simpler, is not always better. Why not just play things like larpers do and play rocks, paper scissors for everything? I'll answer that, because it's lame. Granted healing surges aren't lame on the same magnitude, but they are lame in much the same way the basic DND boxed sets were lame.
(2) You're assuming that there isn't some guideline given for non-PC characters about how many healing surges an opponent can spend. I'm not arguing that such a mechanic shouldn't or doesn't exist, merely that for the most part it's extraneous.
You said that it wasn't important. I was arguing from the standpoint that it is important.
Some of the current idiocy with packet labelling is the assumption that we should spell out explicitly for 0.01% of the population what the remaining 99.99% considers bleedingly obvious. At some point, the system has to say "we've taken you far enough; extrapolate the exceptions for yourself".
I plan on it, but it bothers me that such obvious issues as this are going unaddressed in the name of creating a new edition of the game. These "exceptions" will be addressed in further editions and errata; i'm sure of that.
More rules will be piled on, number of and events allowing "healing surges" will probably be changed eventually. Hopefully, the name will be the first thing changed, because it just sounds dumb; like the whole party going into some Dragon Ball Z screaming fest while they harness their "chi" between battles.
While humorous, it's still pretty lame.
Here are some things that sound better than "Healing Surge" to describe recovering hit points naturally:
Depends, like I said, how you define injury. Isn't a broken arm or leg, sucking chest wound, or having an arrow lodged in ones lung an injury? D&D is not designed, at least by WotC, to have injuries such as this. They have made the concious decision to make HP not an actual measure of physical damage. Hence, we don't have sucking chest wounds, and collapsed lungs in the game. A PC is more likely, for whatever reason, able to survive combat, where I'm sure a commoner should die by being stabbed. WotC has decided to make 1st level characters superheros. Not, Superman level superheroes, but more like Batman Year One superheroes.
Batman has been laid out and often has to rest to recover from his injuries. Note, I'm not suggesting sucking chest wounds, only injuries that are more than a scrape that when combined WITH those hit points that are no physical, would result in a reason why a PC would be down and dying at 0/-1. Some deep cuts that bleed profusely, but on areas that don't affect the PC from doing his actions. Eventually, bleeding cuts slow down and cause someone to lose conciousness(down and dying), but sometimes, they slow or stop on their own(stabilization), and baring magic, they always require time to heal(hit point recover over days, not 6 hours). These all make for a system that makes a lot more sense than the one 4ed has put out.
One. Please leave try to the antagonistic attitude out of this, I'm not trying to attack you or how you feel about things. While I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I don't take kindly to people being rude. You may not have intended this, but regardless that's how it comes off to me.
I appologize. It looked to me like you were simply ignoring what I said ,and answering your own idea of what you wanted my words to mean.
I highlighted the one part, but I don't believe anywhere in there was anything about too much realism being bad.
This I also appologize for. I've had this discussion in so many threads, and pointed out how too much realism was bad, that it can be hard to remember where I said what.
Two. How do you know that there isn't some magic behind healing surges? Maybe we haven't read anything in any previews or such, but since the books aren't out, there may be such a passage in them that states that Players have some fate or special characteristic that makes them heal faster. After all, WotC has said that 1st level characters are better than average people. While npc's and monsters do have healing surges, they don't have as many as player characters.
I wouldn't make sense for them to be magic in the format that they have been presented. Rogues, warriors, and other classes with healing surges, are completely non-magical classes. Further, they are based off of constitution, implying that physical(not magical) health is the key. If they were magical in nature, I'd expect wisdom, long equated with will power and divine healing magic, to be the key stat.
Requiring time to heal is only realistic if HP represents purely physical damage, which it clearly does not, even in the current editions. Requiring a month to recover abstract concepts such as luck, skill (turning a serious blow into a lesser one), divine favor, etc., doesn't make any more sense than if 4e introduced a specific injury system and allowed characters with broken bones to heal after a 5 minute rest.
No, time to heal is realistic if ANY of the damage is physical(more than scrapes and bruises). That part of it is physical makes even more sense when you consider that it took a week(if that) to heal fully.
The healing surges make sense when viewed through the context of what HP really represent. In fact, this would be better termed "recovery" than healing, since healing implies physical damage (not to say HP don't represent some physical damage, but it can't be mostly physical, otherwise PC death would be a lot more common).
ONLY if you then add some pure physical body points or something for when you reach 0 hit points. It makes ZERO sense for every PC to have only 1 physical hit point, and start dying if an ant bites them too hard. The way 4ed is currently written, hit points and healing surges make no sense.
I believe that the best HP and healing surge explanation (can't remember who posted it) described it as "plot armor". The PCs can survive all kinds of crazy things, just like heroes in a book or movie, but eventually so much crap happens that it breaks suspension of disbelief. By this point, the characters are like the heroes at the end of the movie, where they finally start to look hurt and tired. They can no longer recover from falls off of buildings (no more healing surges), and they are in real danger of dying.
No amount of plot armor justification can explain away the fact that heroes are so pathetically weak, that they all will start dying with a single hit point of damage.
Batman has been laid out and often has to rest to recover from his injuries. Note, I'm not suggesting sucking chest wounds, only injuries that are more than a scrape that when combined WITH those hit points that are no physical, would result in a reason why a PC would be down and dying at 0/-1. Some deep cuts that bleed profusely, but on areas that don't affect the PC from doing his actions. Eventually, bleeding cuts slow down and cause someone to lose conciousness(down and dying), but sometimes, they slow or stop on their own(stabilization), and baring magic, they always require time to heal(hit point recover over days, not 6 hours). These all make for a system that makes a lot more sense than the one 4ed has put out.
Batman is a fair example. However, I have read some issues where Batman just fights through the pain, pretty much ignoring it -even with broken bones. While, I can agree that an individual should take time to heal, perhaps, such healing is best left to in between adventures. I also think that the characters in 4e are a bit more exceptional than even Batman.
I appologize. It looked to me like you were simply ignoring what I said ,and answering your own idea of what you wanted my words to mean.
This I also appologize for. I've had this discussion in so many threads, and pointed out how too much realism was bad, that it can be hard to remember where I said what.
Apology accepted, and thank you.
I wouldn't make sense for them to be magic in the format that they have been presented. Rogues, warriors, and other classes with healing surges, are completely non-magical classes. Further, they are based off of constitution, implying that physical(not magical) health is the key. If they were magical in nature, I'd expect wisdom, long equated with will power and divine healing magic, to be the key stat.
I was just putting a theory out there. We know that Epic characters have some powers that can be activated when they die. So, I think PC's are ones that have a destiny even before they get to epic levels. So, while a form of magic that we are accustomed to doesn't fit with the healing, perhaps the developers have put forth something new.
As to the plot armour idea, I don't think it's that unrealistic that someone could be killed with a single point of damage from a weapon designed to kill you. While I think that is a bit too extreme, I think the problem with the HP system boils down to the names of the abilities - Healing Surges, Hit Points, Second wind, etc. Perhaps if instead of these titles, hit points was called Fate or Karma, healing surges/second wind was called tempting fate or something similar. If names such as these were used, I think many of the debates wouldn't be around. But, then again changing the names of these abilities (and ipso facto, their meaning) would be a far deviation from D&D as we know it. Killing a sacred cow, as it were.
Batman is a fair example. However, I have read some issues where Batman just fights through the pain, pretty much ignoring it -even with broken bones. While, I can agree that an individual should take time to heal, perhaps, such healing is best left to in between adventures. I also think that the characters in 4e are a bit more exceptional than even Batman.
Heh. Can't agree with you there. Batman may be the finest example of a normal human achieving the most(epic levels) that a human can achieve.
I was just putting a theory out there. We know that Epic characters have some powers that can be activated when they die. So, I think PC's are ones that have a destiny even before they get to epic levels. So, while a form of magic that we are accustomed to doesn't fit with the healing, perhaps the developers have put forth something new.
As to the plot armour idea, I don't think it's that unrealistic that someone could be killed with a single point of damage from a weapon designed to kill you. While I think that is a bit too extreme, I think the problem with the HP system boils down to the names of the abilities - Healing Surges, Hit Points, Second wind, etc. Perhaps if instead of these titles, hit points was called Fate or Karma, healing surges/second wind was called tempting fate or something similar. If names such as these were used, I think many of the debates wouldn't be around. But, then again changing the names of these abilities (and ipso facto, their meaning) would be a far deviation from D&D as we know it. Killing a sacred cow, as it were.
I decided to create an object that would be used to surge, essentially making surges magical healing. It fixes all my issues.
Uumm.. no? Batman might be sniffing at Paragon levels, or sometimes he's almost epic, but he'll always be second to Superman.
Not even close, man. Batman has achieved what he did through pure skill and willpower. Superman was born with his powers, and never had to do anything for them. Superman is the one who is not epic.
Not even close, man. Batman has achieved what he did through pure skill and willpower. Superman was born with his powers, and never had to do anything for them. Superman is the one who is not epic.
Rather that Superman has the Monty Haul DM and got to start as level 20-21, while Batman has one of those DMs that forces you to work hard for your levels
In 3.5 the amount of damage required to kill you was the same wheter it was done in one round, one encounter, or spread out over the whole day.
In 4E if you get one amount of damage, 100% HP, in one round, then you go down.
If you get another amount, 125% HP, in one encounter, you go down.
If you get a third much higher amount over the whole day, 350% HP (for a lvl 1 fighter with 12con), then you finally go down.
This is much more analogus to real life. If you slap me 50 times in 15 minutes, then I go down. If you slap me inttermittenly over the day, it will take a lot more to put me down.
In 3.5 the amount of damage required to kill you was the same wheter it was done in one round, one encounter, or spread out over the whole day.
In 4E if you get one amount of damage, 100% HP, in one round, then you go down.
If you get another amount, 125% HP, in one encounter, you go down.
If you get a third much higher amount over the whole day, 350% HP (for a lvl 1 fighter with 12con), then you finally go down.
This is much more analogus to real life. If you slap me 50 times in 15 minutes, then I go down. If you slap me inttermittenly over the day, it will take a lot more to put me down.
That's all fine and dandy, but monsters don't run around slapping people.
