And classical heroes got hurt badly all the time. What's your point?
That the developers of 4e have designed the game so that at 1st level, your character is a heroic figure. They are more than the average farmer that gets swept into the action - they are special (at least that's what their mothers say) There are people that want to play such games where the pc's are all just average people. 4e, while not specifically invalidating this idea, has said that the pc's are not average the are better than most people, that's why they are being played.
They also got themselves killed fairly often as well.
And thus a quote from Serenity was wasted... :P
D&D is about realism. All fantasy games are about realism. That's why they have gravity, and characters can't move 100 miles in a second on foot. They add fantasy elements into the mix, but realism is a HUGE part of every fantasy game, including D&D.
The gravity and such is probably, at least how I see it, more of constants so that people can understand the game, as the human mindset, for the most part, doesn't think outside certain parameters. This is one of the reasons most races in fantasy and science fiction are generally humanoid, the reader can relate to the character better, and the mindset of such races is generally, very human. While some writers have taken different morality and mindsets into account, I have found that many do not, because if you risk a chance of alienating the audience - no pun intended - and they may not understand the motivations of the enemy and lose interest. So, like I said some things are constants for comprehension more, for the ease of understanding of the majority.
But D&D is far from realistic. If you get hit by a sword in real life, chances are you will die. In D&D not so much, depending on how you define hp, but that's a different argument. If you get hit with a ball of fire in real life, chances are you might be going to a burn ward, even if you only get blasted by the heat from such. In D&D, once again, not so much. You don't roll for infection or get broken bones from a fall in D&D and I'm sure there are countless other examples. But, most of these are purposefully left out of the game, because getting hurt like that, at least as far as I can see in the developers eyes, would slow down the game. And that's not what 4e is about. Are there RPG's that do take stuff like that into account? Yes. But not D&D, if you want those 'realistic' factors go play another RPG, but don't come here and say that D&D is wrong because you want that in YOUR game.
I will never accept ANY edition of D&D(or any other RPG) for what it is. All RPG are flawed, and they always will be. Whenever I come across a flaw, I'm going to fix it.
But what you see as a flaw, may not be what I see is a flaw. Who is right? Both of us, actually. So when people come on here, or in real life say that something is wrong - really it's wrong for them, not everyone.
All I was trying to say is that, if you don't like what 4e is doing don't play. The constant whining and bickering does nothing. I know people like to whine about things -especially online- but there comes a point when, I think, people should realize that the game is not for them and rather than try to change it to better suit their needs, they shouldn't be afraid to look somewhere else and possibly give something else a try. They may just like it, and it may be a better suit for what they want out of a game.
To use another analogy, think of an RPG system (in this case) D&D as a woman* you are attracted to her initially, but as time goes on you see that there are many things that you don't like about her, but you've been with her a long time. Trying to change her is just going to cause problems and conflict, so why not look inwards on what you really want and act on it. Sure it may be hard to leave her, but in the long run it may be for the best. If you leave on good terms, you hopefully, can look back with fond memories of how things were fun for a time, but you have to move on because it's the right time. If you stayed, you'd only end up hurting her and yourselves because of it. Trying to change someone else seems like the easier solution, but it isn't. It's easier, in the long run, to change yourself. But people don't like to admit they are wrong, and they stay together and be miserable where they should have parted ways amicably and found another that was right for them.
*I did not use a relationship with a woman as an example because I hate women, or for any other reason other than I'm a heterosexual man, and the analogy makes sense to me. I'm not going to pander to any sense of political correctness just to please people. If I write something I will say he, instead of them, because I'm a guy. If you don't like that. Tough. It's your problem not mine. If what I write bugs you so much, just replace woman with man, her with he or person and them if you're really picky but don't whine to me about it because, frankly, I don't care.
That the developers of 4e have designed the game so that at 1st level, your character is a heroic figure. They are more than the average farmer that gets swept into the action - they are special (at least that's what their mothers say) There are people that want to play such games where the pc's are all just average people. 4e, while not specifically invalidating this idea, has said that the pc's are not average the are better than most people, that's why they are being played.
And still, heroic figures, first level or higher, still get injured.
The gravity and such is probably, at least how I see it, more of constants so that people can understand the game, as the human mindset, for the most part, doesn't think outside certain parameters. This is one of the reasons most races in fantasy and science fiction are generally humanoid, the reader can relate to the character better, and the mindset of such races is generally, very human. While some writers have taken different morality and mindsets into account, I have found that many do not, because if you risk a chance of alienating the audience - no pun intended - and they may not understand the motivations of the enemy and lose interest. So, like I said some things are constants for comprehension more, for the ease of understanding of the majority.
But D&D is far from realistic. If you get hit by a sword in real life, chances are you will die. In D&D not so much, depending on how you define hp, but that's a different argument. If you get hit with a ball of fire in real life, chances are you might be going to a burn ward, even if you only get blasted by the heat from such. In D&D, once again, not so much. You don't roll for infection or get broken bones from a fall in D&D and I'm sure there are countless other examples. But, most of these are purposefully left out of the game, because getting hurt like that, at least as far as I can see in the developers eyes, would slow down the game. And that's not what 4e is about. Are there RPG's that do take stuff like that into account? Yes. But not D&D, if you want those 'realistic' factors go play another RPG, but don't come here and say that D&D is wrong because you want that in YOUR game.
Hello. Did you even read what I said? I stated quite clearly that TOO MUCH REALISM IS BAD. However, some is good. Most of where D&D breaks realism, is through magic. Healing surges and hit points are NOT magic, at least not as written.
All I was trying to say is that, if you don't like what 4e is doing don't play.
And still, heroic figures, first level or higher, still get injured.
Depends, like I said, how you define injury. Isn't a broken arm or leg, sucking chest wound, or having an arrow lodged in ones lung an injury? D&D is not designed, at least by WotC, to have injuries such as this. They have made the concious decision to make HP not an actual measure of physical damage. Hence, we don't have sucking chest wounds, and collapsed lungs in the game. A PC is more likely, for whatever reason, able to survive combat, where I'm sure a commoner should die by being stabbed. WotC has decided to make 1st level characters superheros. Not, Superman level superheroes, but more like Batman Year One superheroes.
Hello. Did you even read what I said? I stated quite clearly that TOO MUCH REALISM IS BAD. However, some is good. Most of where D&D breaks realism, is through magic. Healing surges and hit points are NOT magic, at least not as written.
A couple of things. One. Please leave try to the antagonistic attitude out of this, I'm not trying to attack you or how you feel about things. While I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I don't take kindly to people being rude. You may not have intended this, but regardless that's how it comes off to me.
Now, to quote this:
Maxperson wrote:
D&D is about realism. All fantasy games are about realism. That's why they have gravity, and characters can't move 100 miles in a second on foot. They add fantasy elements into the mix, but realism is a HUGE part of every fantasy game, including D&D.
I highlighted the one part, but I don't believe anywhere in there was anything about too much realism being bad. Two. How do you know that there isn't some magic behind healing surges? Maybe we haven't read anything in any previews or such, but since the books aren't out, there may be such a passage in them that states that Players have some fate or special characteristic that makes them heal faster. After all, WotC has said that 1st level characters are better than average people. While npc's and monsters do have healing surges, they don't have as many as player characters.
Or change it.
Fine, change it. But don't come here, or wherever else and tell everyone that it's wrong, just because you* think it is. If you have the time and you want to spend it re-writing the game to better suit you, fine. Personally, I'd try a different system that may be more what I'm looking for. And I've done this very thing. Sometimes it hasn't worked out, but sometimes it has. Broadening your horizons is never a bad thing IMHO, but I fine that far to many are more than willing to change what they liked before, that is different than what they remember or they don't see the full picture because the rules aren't out yet, to suit them than to take a step and try something new. I've seen lots of people on this very forum that have said that 4e is NOT D&D in anything other than name. Okay, fine. But you don't have to play D&D. It's not the only RPG out there.
* when I say you, I don't mean you as to centre out a specific individual, but as a generalization for people reading this.
You are making the assumption that all NPCs are unimportant to the storyline when in fact
(1) "important to storyline" is not the same thing as "needs PC-level statistical detail". The captive boy-prince may be vital to the story, but if he's never required to make a skill check or engage in combat then his mechanical stats are irrelevant. In contrast, we don't give two hoots about Owlbear #3's background, but we do want to know what he can do in this combat right now.
(2) I specifically mentioned that a few characters will have PC-level mechanical detail.
BeerMan5000 wrote:
In a story where specific NPCs with real names are central-front in the plot and are featured as the primary antagonists, then keeping track of wounds recieved between battles becomes a good idea.
Just like one does for PCs. Oh, wait, PCs recover any meaningful expendable resources every day. Any ongoing wounds are flavour.
BeerMan5000 wrote:
I see holes in this explaination.
(snip series of skirmishes with opponent)
(1) This sort of extended multi-encounter is the exception, rather than the norm. Attempting to design specific mechanics for every exception that you can think of leads to bloated and unuseable rulesets.
(2) You're assuming that there isn't some guideline given for non-PC characters about how many healing surges an opponent can spend. I'm not arguing that such a mechanic shouldn't or doesn't exist, merely that for the most part it's extraneous.
Some of the current idiocy with packet labelling is the assumption that we should spell out explicitly for 0.01% of the population what the remaining 99.99% considers bleedingly obvious. At some point, the system has to say "we've taken you far enough; extrapolate the exceptions for yourself".
Note, I didn't say they were completely realistic or made total sense, just that they made MORE sense than 4ed. That leaves a lot of room. :::grin:::
To me, the fact that they required a significant amount of rest to heal, gave them more realism and sense than 4ed does.
Requiring time to heal is only realistic if HP represents purely physical damage, which it clearly does not, even in the current editions. Requiring a month to recover abstract concepts such as luck, skill (turning a serious blow into a lesser one), divine favor, etc., doesn't make any more sense than if 4e introduced a specific injury system and allowed characters with broken bones to heal after a 5 minute rest.
The healing surges make sense when viewed through the context of what HP really represent. In fact, this would be better termed "recovery" than healing, since healing implies physical damage (not to say HP don't represent some physical damage, but it can't be mostly physical, otherwise PC death would be a lot more common).
I believe that the best HP and healing surge explanation (can't remember who posted it) described it as "plot armor". The PCs can survive all kinds of crazy things, just like heroes in a book or movie, but eventually so much crap happens that it breaks suspension of disbelief. By this point, the characters are like the heroes at the end of the movie, where they finally start to look hurt and tired. They can no longer recover from falls off of buildings (no more healing surges), and they are in real danger of dying.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
(1) This sort of extended multi-encounter is the exception, rather than the norm. Attempting to design specific mechanics for every exception that you can think of leads to bloated and unuseable rulesets.
I would also point out that in this extended multi-encounter example that the opponent would not be likely to have the 5 minutes to sit down and rest that he needed to spend healing surges to heal himself up.
The ability for a PC to heal himself innately through no magic or mundane talent is really odd and jarring to me.
To those who argue that hit points don't reflect health...
Here's what the 3.5 PHB says about hit points:
PHB135]Hit Points Hit points represent how much damage a character can take before falling unconscious or dying.
The SRD has this to say:
Hit Points Hit points represent how much damage a character can take before falling unconscious or dying.[/quote] The SRD has this to say:
SRD]When your hit point total reaches 0, you’ wrote:
When your hit point total reaches 0, you’re disabled. When it reaches -1, you’re dying. When it gets to -10, you’re dead.
That's pretty much it. Weapons do damage, which reduces hit points. Lose enough hit points and you die.
You may not think of hit points as a measure of health, but that's what they are. Rationalizations about how a Healing Surge is just gritting your teeth doesn't really hold water when you consider that the PC isn't just dealing with the pain of the damage he currently has -- he is actually restoring hit points so he can take even more damage. And he's using something called a "Healing Surge" to do it.
So it is healing taking place. Spontaneous, regenerative healing. Well, it requires a short break I think. To be fair.
It's just odd to me that's all. I think I could like it when it's used in-game. But the *idea* of it seems hard to believe. I want the party to heal, so they just spontaneously do? I know, we're all Bruce Willis now. Bruce Willis is the new Chuck Norris.
Well, this changes slightly your idea of HP, but still deals with PCs being injured, so what you think of this idea (I posted it on previous page):
HP = Your fighting capacity, and ability to be physically able to fight and survive a conflict. Thus why there is bloodied mechanics to show when ability to fight has grown limited and finally when you become incapacitated and when in this state of near death, the prospect of death is more real, because this final major incapacitation can potentially cause life-threatening injuries.
Healing Surges = Your actual health, this represents how well your body, mind and the level of physical capabilities you are able to endure and press onward with. The more healing surges you use, showcases you placing extra stress on your body to push on and work at fuller capacities, as well as make minor injuries patched up.
As you use up your Healing Surges it means it is harder too reach your full fighting potential because your injuries and sheer stress on your body has begun to build up. When all your Healing Surges are gone, this is when you have reached the end of the line and your body is suffering too much to continue working at full capacity.
Also, the death rules... Don't really account for much now, since well... The death rules are so much different now.
Healing surges seems like a neat-o thing but do they make any sense? I mean, take this for example:
DM: "The goblin kicks over the table and stabs Kodos in the thigh with his sword! The wound is deep and blood pours down your leg, splashing onto the floor."
Kodos: "Ouch! That hurts! I'm almost dead! I'll.... clench my teeth real hard and have a heal surge."
DM: "Uh... okay... The wound in your thigh suddenly closes and the bleeding stops and you feel better..."
The mechanic is convenient but really leaves me scratching my head as to how it can be explained. If it were magic, no problem. Miracles from the gods? Sure. But how a whole party of adventurers who just had the crap beat out of them with claws, swords, fire and hammers can just rest under a tree for six hours and then be totally healed and smiles is a bit much.
keep in mind hit points are not really how much actual damage a person can take in a physical sense, so much as how good the charicters plot shields are.
keep in mind hit points are not really how much actual damage a person can take in a physical sense, so much as how good the charicters plot shields are.
Hmmm I really dislike even the idea of "plot armour/shield" outside of a novel or a movie/tv series
