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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:00PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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Iaijitsu anyone?
You'll note that this isn't just a lame status effect anymore. This is an ability of the rogue class. If he is faster then you, he has advantage. Why? Because he's skilled at taking the advantage. And it doesn't matter how much you 'were totally ready for him.' Just like he doesn't get to auto dodge because he knows you're going to attack him with your weapon. You lost the roll which means you messed up.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:03PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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The fighter should always have the advantage in a straight up fight.
No fight against a rogue is a straight up fight.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:14PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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Iaijitsu anyone?
You'll note that this isn't just a lame status effect anymore. This is an ability of the rogue class. If he is faster then you, he has advantage. Why? Because he's skilled at taking the advantage. And it doesn't matter how much you 'were totally ready for him.' Just like he doesn't get to auto dodge because he knows you're going to attack him with your weapon. You lost the roll which means you messed up.
What are you talking about with 'auto dodge'? I dont follow that part. I am objecting to NON surprise sneak attacks when both combatants are ready to fight. I woul expect both foes attack and dodge normally, as there is no surprise. Why would anyone auto dodge?
I would reccomend that all combatants keep their weapons at the ready; it's not faster to attack from the sheathe. Thats funny!
Not to mention the Samarai were perhaps ...Fighters? must have been rogues.
Yup, people just stand there drooling, helpless waiting to be hit when ready for combat.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:16PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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No fight against a rogue is a straight up fight.
I agree that the rogue may prefer it that way, but so would a fighter that is not 'chivilrous'
Many fighters would seek to end a fight quickly by surprising their enemy with a fast attack, wouldn't they?
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:30PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2005
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I think you're missing the point here. Flat-footed don't make it in, combat advantage. Yes, the may behave almost identical, but it seems so far that combat advantage is rogue only, why else list it with the class and not in another section.
You're still applying 3rd ed mindset to 4th, all we can really do right now is look at it objectively as a stand alone setup.
As for samurai, well as far as I can tell, they were more like rogues tehn fighters in many aspects, but that's a whole new topic all together.
Acting first still makes a huge difference, getting hit right away actually hurst more then getting injured halfway into a fight. Your body is still colder, less flexible, and less reactive at first. Adrenaline may seem to work fast, still takes a bit of time and mental assessment before it gets all the way up.
Just being able to see and recognize your opponent doesn't mean squat. From roman gladiators to florentine fighting to samurai to most martial arts, all have many ways to catch your opponent off guard or "suprise" them even when they think they know what's going on.
You're lucky they don't let rogues have ways to keep combat advantage up every round just by default, becouse their are many martial arts out there that once they start, well....good luck.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:43PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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What are you talking about with 'auto dodge'? I dont follow that part. I am objecting to NON surprise sneak attacks when both combatants are ready to fight. I woul expect both foes attack and dodge normally, as there is no surprise. Why would anyone auto dodge?
You character doesn't want to be hit right? Well that's too bad, because the opponent rolled higher then your AC.
Your character didn't want to be surprised right? Well that's too bad, because the Rogue rolled higher on his initiative.
I would reccomend that all combatants keep their weapons at the ready; it's not faster to attack from the sheathe. Thats funny!
Not to mention the Samarai were perhaps ...Fighters? must have been rogues.
Yup, people just stand there drooling, helpless waiting to be hit when ready for combat.
You missed the point.
The priciple of the iaijitsu duel is that both sides are aware of their opponent, planning to attack, and because they both have thier swords in their sheaths know the possible angles of attack.
And still it is possible to surprise your opponent with the angle, style or speed of your cut and win the duel. And you had better surprise your opponent, because if you don't he's going to counter cut and take off one of your arms.
Thus the entire premice that it's impossible to surprise an opponent who knows your there is flawed.
I agree that the rogue may prefer it that way, but so would a fighter that is not 'chivilrous'
Many fighters would seek to end a fight quickly by surprising their enemy with a fast attack, wouldn't they?
Yes sadly we have no idea if Fighters get a bonus like that, or perhaps some other ability to gain combat advantage.
You're lucky they don't let rogues have ways to keep combat advantage up every round just by default, becouse their are many martial arts out there that once they start, well....good luck.
Like say this. I could totally see Fighters getting combat advantage over anyone who they hit who hasn't hit them back. A steady stream of beatdown seems like the fighters thing. Or maybe they don't even need combat advantage to work you over. Who can say?
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 1:53PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2007
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Explain to me why a rogue, or anyone for that matter, should automaticly surprise every foe he fights regardless of how the fight starts every single time...but wait! even more illogical..only the first round! you forget how to do it after the fight starts!
It defies logic.
You're missing quite a bit here. There is no "surprise" involved. If the Rogue goes before you, he gains combat advantage over you. This is a function of his Rogue training, specifically "First Strike". Combat advantage is not surprise and it is not a sneak attack. As a matter of fact, the only thing it does on it's own (if we extrapolate from DDM) is give you a +2 to hit.
However, when a Rogue has combat advantage over you, he can use his Sneak Attack ability. How does he gain combat advantage? By going first (First Strike), by getting behind you (Flanking), by being invisible (per DDM), by gacking you and circling in for the kill (Crimson Blade) and probably by other methods as well.
Other classes can also gain combat advantage, but we don't know what that does for them as of yet beyond the +2. Basically, a Rogue is trained to more fully utilize any openings he gets, and the ability to create an opening if he's quick enough "on the draw" (so to speak).
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 2:39PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2007
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It is a simplified suprise round that works far better than any old version.
You act before they have a chance to. If you act then before they do you get advantages. After that they are fully operational. This opens options for ambushes that don't require annoying suprise/flat footed rules.
I don't see the problem with this rule and I am getting tired of BS complaining about rules and elements that are absolutely and clearly far better.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 3:06PM
#19
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Crossbows grant first strike, according to Races & Classes. So PCs can carry loaded crossbows around and gain combat advantage against opponents yet to take their turn.
The ideal rogue combat involves two hits - they hit, then the opponent hits the floor. For that to happen, going first helps a great deal, as does getting a bonus when it occurs. Sometimes, PCs of other classes get first shot, but the rogue is the one who knows what to do with it.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2008 - 5:26PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2008
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The ideal rogue combat involves two hits - they hit the opponent, then the opponent hits the floor.
I like that 
For that to happen, going first helps a great deal, as does getting a bonus when it occurs. Sometimes, PCs of other classes get first shot, but the rogue is the one who knows what to do with it.
Agreed.
For Fighters and such, the advantage of going first in a "stand-up" fight is that you get to take the first swing, and that's not an unsizable advantage, given the new "bloodied" mechanic. Hit hard enough before the other guy gets his shot, and he starts off at less than 1/2 hp, and . . . well, we don't know what bloodied does, but it's probably bad.
Rogues, on the other hand, sidle up to you looking like they're getting ready for a stand-up fight, then all of a sudden boom boom boom, you were looking at the sword in his right hand and you've got a dagger in your neck from the knife he was slipping into his left.
I'm sure there will also be rules for attacking people who have no idea that you are there, and that'll cover your "flat-footed" scenario. The Rogue power, on the other hand, is more of the, "You see me coming, but there's still nothing you can do about it" flavor.
I like it.
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