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5 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2008 - 10:09PM
#51
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So it has! Thanks for pointing it out. I guess they changed it for balance reasons? You trade damage for accuracy, kinda like Power Attack reversed.
I take it you don't use any splatbooks (other than ToB and ToM).
I'd say they changed it for balance reasons. It was excessively difficult to play the ranger at DDXP. I played 20 to 30 games while there, and wanted to play the Ranger every time. I played it only 4 times because I let others who only wanted to play the Ranger. In other words, everyone and their brother wanted to play the Ranger over everything else.
As for splatbooks. In my 3.5e game, I all ALL books from all settings (exclude the setting specific stuff when it doesn't make sense like organizations that don't exist.) I also allow all Dragon Magazines on a case by case. In other words, your belief I limit the scope of the abilities my players can use. I don't.
On to your second point, I allow Spells Compendium. It doesn't any any complexity to a game, since any character using spells from SpC don't add abilities to the game. All spellcasters already have one ability: Spellcasting.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2008 - 11:49PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2005
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Well, on average against an AC 15 enemy, you have a 16/20 chance of hitting with careful shot, for 8 damage/round on average, or a 12/20 chance of hitting with your shift and shoot ability, for 8.4 damage/round. You break even on damage against AC 17, and are ahead on damage on any AC higher than 17. Double posted with a half-hour interval?! That's got to be a record!
Yeah, I'm hardcore like that. Hit "reply" before dinner, came back, it didn't look like it went through, hit it again, still nothing, refreshed the page. Go me?
I was under the impression you could do pretty much the same thing by turning to the section of the 3E DMG which had stats for premade NPCs.
You can, but I've generally found them to be... inadequete.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 5:30AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2001
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I was under the impression you could do pretty much the same thing by turning to the section of the 3E DMG which had stats for premade NPCs. 
You can, but I've generally found them to be... inadequete.
Exactly, and the pregenned NPCs are difficult to modify. I mean, you want to take a basic Barbarian NPC and give him a few levels of Bear Warrior so he can use this or that cool power? Yeah, good luck with that. You're right back to Accounting class, trying to keep track of what his BAB is and how his strength change from raging is going to affect all the downstream values and what his base save bonus is once he's met the prereqs and taken two levels of the PRC...
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 5:46AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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You're right back to Accounting class, trying to keep track of what his BAB is and how his strength change from raging is going to affect all the downstream values and what his base save bonus is once he's met the prereqs and taken two levels of the PRC...
Stop, I'm getting a headache…
While I prided myself on excruciatingly exact/detailed NPC design in the last edition (you know, 36 hours spent on a 20th level half-fey drow truenamer or what have you), but after awhile it just felt like bean counting.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 7:22AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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Exactly, and the pregenned NPCs are difficult to modify. I mean, you want to take a basic Barbarian NPC and give him a few levels of Bear Warrior so he can use this or that cool power? Yeah, good luck with that. You're right back to Accounting class, trying to keep track of what his BAB is and how his strength change from raging is going to affect all the downstream values and what his base save bonus is once he's met the prereqs and taken two levels of the PRC...
Yes, but the trade off was that you could make the NPC unique. You did not HAVE to make him so.
Now, all of the NPCs will be basically the same. You could not add the Bear Warrior levels even if you wanted to... They no longer exist.
The trade off for ease of use and standardization is customization.
In 3.5, you could make an NPC very quickly and easily by referencing the table in the DMG. It was as simple to do that as it is in 4e (as described).
BUT, you could customized the NPC if you wanted. But it required a lot more time and effort.
In 4e, all the NPCs will be as easy to create as referencing the table in the 3.5 DMG....
But there is no option to customize the NPC beyond that.
In short, in 3.5 if you wanted to make NPCs just as quickly as 4e, it was just as easy to do.... Reference a single table...
P.S. I will try to play 4e sooner or later, but I just do not like the way it feels from what I have seen so far. Everyone keeps comparing the PCs to Die Hard with Xmen powers... Blah.
And it seems somewhat accurate to do so:
1. The players are no longer scared of traps and ambushes (behind doors), as the PLAYER (not the PC) knows that what ever is behind the door cannot kill them in "one shot"...
2. PCs and NPCs are very (bordering on extrememely) limited in customization.
3. There is no limitation on at-will abilities... You can magic missle all day long and never get tired of channeling the energy..
4. You get triple HP, and 5-6 (plus bonuses) healing surges a day, AND a %25 chance of recoving from death with 1/4 of your HP...
oh... AND, healing does not count against your negative HP.
Example: If you are a 10th level fighter (with 120 hp) and have been knocked down to -50, a cleric healing you for 5 points puts you at 5 HP!!!
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 8:24AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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In short, in 3.5 if you wanted to make NPCs just as quickly as 4e, it was just as easy to do.... Reference a single table...
But DMs such as myself; have never used the sub-standard NPCs (barely gave them a passing glance when first opened the 3.5 DMG, giggled, and never looked again) in the DMG.
…My players would laugh if I did.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 8:48AM
#57
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1. The players are no longer scared of traps and ambushes (behind doors), as the PLAYER (not the PC) knows that what ever is behind the door cannot kill them in "one shot"...
Sudden PC death doesn't add tension. It simply increases the amount of emotional distance that the average player puts between themselves and their character. It makes no sense to become emotionally invested in an avatar that's going to die the first time you fail a Search check.
2. PCs and NPCs are very (bordering on extrememely) limited in customization.
Simply untrue. The average 4e PC (or PC-classed NPC) will have just as many options as they had in 3e, if not vastly more. More available options (in terms of powers, "builds", skill selection, etc) means greater opportunity for customization.
3. There is no limitation on at-will abilities... You can magic missle all day long and never get tired of channeling the energy..
Yep. It's a semi-trivial spell that functionally takes the place of the 3e Wizard's crossbow. You may see that as a bad thing, but all my players who have ever played a low-level Wizard think it's great.
4. You get triple HP, and 5-6 (plus bonuses) healing surges a day, AND a %25 chance of recoving from death with 1/4 of your HP...
First, the chance is 5%. Second, everything else has many more hit points than they did in 3e, so you're making comparisons between two very different scales. Third, all forms of healing use Healing Surges, so it's not any different than figuring out how many potions of CLW your group happens to have on them.
oh... AND, healing does not count against your negative HP.
I haven't seen this, and I have no idea what it means. I personally find the 3rd Edition concept of negative hit points to be patently absurd. You're either on your feet fighting (at 1 or more HP) or you're done (0). After that there can be any number of options to handle potential death mechanically, but an arbitrary number of negative hit points is a really silly way to do it when you look at the differences between level 1 and level 20.
Example: If you are a 10th level fighter (with 120 hp) and have been knocked down to -50, a cleric healing you for 5 points puts you at 5 HP!!!
Ah. So all it means is that the god-slave doesn't have to spend round after round pumping divine energy into you to get you to stand back up. His god gets it right on the first try. That, I can deal with.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 10:18AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2001
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Yes, but the trade off was that you could make the NPC unique. You did not HAVE to make him so.
Now, all of the NPCs will be basically the same. You could not add the Bear Warrior levels even if you wanted to... They no longer exist.
The trade off for ease of use and standardization is customization.
Quite the opposite, in point of fact. I want an 8th level NPC with a barbarian flavor? I'll give him appropriate Brute stats and then -- well, for example, I could flip to the 8th level powers available to a Fighter and pick out two that are particularly barbarianish. Or I can borrow a power from a monster that gives my NPC a bonus to attack and damage when he's bloodied (to represent rage).
You're not limited to selecting feats* and perhaps a handful of class features that give you options (which normally boil down to bonus feats or spell selection anyway).
BUT, you could customized the NPC if you wanted. But it required a lot more time and effort.
Right. And now you can do that with a tenth of the time and effort.
2. PCs and NPCs are very (bordering on extrememely) limited in customization.
This point alone convinces me that you haven't even looked at any of the information that's been presented. PCs are *more* customizable, not *less* -- at each level you'll be getting a new list of three or four powers, from which you can select one or more. That's far more customization than 3.x where you get a prespecified list of powers and a feat every third level.
This is making every class more like the 3.x spellcaster.
3. There is no limitation on at-will abilities... You can magic missle all day long and never get tired of channeling the energy..
How is that a negative? Why should a wizard get more tired from shooting MMs than a fighter gets from swinging an axe?
4. You get triple HP, and 5-6 (plus bonuses) healing surges a day, AND a %25 chance of recoving from death with 1/4 of your HP...
oh... AND, healing does not count against your negative HP.
First, you get triple HP at 1st level only. Second, you don't have a 25% chance of recovery from injury; you have a 1/20th chance. You have to roll a 20 to get a Healing Surge. Of course, any effect that gives you a bonus on saving throws (which are pretty rare and almost never above a +5) applies and makes it easier to hit that 20.
Third, there's just no such thing as negative HP; negs only matter in that if you get hit hard enough when you're weak, you might die instantly from the blow -- once you're down, you're just "dying" and at 0 HP, and you don't have any other numbers to track. (AFAIK)
Anyway, this has what to do with anything? You're talking about the specific mechanics of how HPs and healing work. So what?
* I loathe trying to work out feats for NPCs. You can eyeball it, sure, but to do it "right", you practically have to go through and say, "Okay, at level 1 he gets A and B; at level 3 he gets C; at level 4 he gets a class bonus feat D; at level 6 he gets feat E that has D as a prereq..." That gets really OLD when you're working on your third 12th level NPC, especially if he has Fighter multiclassing in there.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 11:09AM
#59
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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You're not limited to selecting feats* and perhaps a handful of class features that give you options (which normally boil down to bonus feats or spell selection anyway).
Or change your class or take a prestege class... In 4e you are stuck as a fighter for at least 10 levels... At least as I understand it.
This point alone convinces me that you haven't even looked at any of the information that's been presented. PCs are *more* customizable, not *less* -- at each level you'll be getting a new list of three or four powers, from which you can select one or more. That's far more customization than 3.x where you get a prespecified list of powers and a feat every third level.
I simply disagree.
Or just change classes. I can be a Fighter at first level, and then a wizard at second level. In 4e, again as I understand it, I will have to remain a fighter for 10 levels at a time...
How is that a negative? Why should a wizard get more tired from shooting MMs than a fighter gets from swinging an axe?
Because some things are harder to do than others?
Why is casting a fireball more "tiring" than casting magic missles?
Second, you don't have a 25% chance of recovery from injury; you have a 1/20th chance.
Incorrect. You have a %5 chance PER ROUND. Without ANY bonus, you will have the following results:
Probabilities after 15 rounds:
72.6% dead,
27.1% recovered,
0.3% still unconscious.
Third, there's just no such thing as negative HP; negs only matter in that if you get hit hard enough when you're weak, you might die instantly from the blow -- once you're down, you're just "dying" and at 0 HP, and you don't have any other numbers to track. (AFAIK)
Incorrect. Negative HP count against you for persistant damage and you can die from negative HP.
Also, according to the math, it is nearly impossible (or simply impossible) to die from a single critical hit.
You can find all of this information here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=987847
I recommend you and other here take a look at it.
P.S. I also make some interesting suggestions in that thread as well, like getting rid of negative HP and having a natural one count as 2 failures...
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5 years ago ::
Mar 13, 2008 - 11:42AM
#60
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Or change your class or take a prestege class... In 4e you are stuck as a fighter for at least 10 levels... At least as I understand it.
At the very least, there will be Class Training feats that allow you to get abilities from another class. It's likely that "full" multiclassing will also be an option in one form or another.
I simply disagree.
Or just change classes. I can be a Fighter at first level, and then a wizard at second level. In 4e, again as I understand it, I will have to remain a fighter for 10 levels at a time...
Again, wrong. See information above.
Because some things are harder to do than others?
And that's why you can only do them once a fight or once a day. Something as ubiquitous as Magic Missile (which has been used as a primary attack by Mages since the box set) should be something you can do again and again.
Why is casting a fireball more "tiring" than casting magic missles?
Because it's a bigger expenditure of energy and it has a lot more pronounced in-game circumstances. One is a single-target damage source, the other is a massive ball of flame that can take out a horde of enemies at once. It's like comparing a crossbow to a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
Incorrect. You have a %5 chance PER ROUND. Without ANY bonus, you will have the following results:
Probabilities after 15 rounds:
72.6% dead,
27.1% recovered,
0.3% still unconscious.
I still don't see the problem. Occasionally (about 27% of the time apparently) one of your PCs will not be quite as dead as he was originally thought to be. I'd also be surprised that a fight lasted 15 rounds after the point where a PC went down. Given that the assumption is near-full HP to start every fight, it's unlikely that it happened early in the combat and the PCs should be giving as well as they get so the monsters should last another 3-4 rounds after the PCs start going down or something's gone horribly wrong.
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