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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 4:10AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2004
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Exactly how long is this horse corpse gonna get beaten?
You don't need minis.
You need a way to keep track of where people are.
Graph paper, pencil and eraser will do.
Heck regular notebook paper will do it you have either a steady hand or a ruler.
grid out a cork board and used thumbtacks.
print out maps and use fold up paper minis.
What ever.
If you played 3e, what ever you did to keep track of where everybody is will work just fine with 4e.
If you didn't play 3e, the merest amount of creativity can solve the problem without spending one red cent on a mini or battlemat.
Well thats the point. No need for maps, thumbnails, toothpicks, poker chips or any other marker.
My issue, that which th OP wanted to know, not your response to my issue, is that movement/positioning/stategy has been built into each classes abilities.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 4:12AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2004
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 4:50AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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Marc: If that's your concern, then 4E (and 3E) are *less* dependent on minis than 1E and 2E were. In those, you not only needed to know where everyone was, but also which way they were facing. 3E and 4E have both disposed of the latter.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 5:18AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2006
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Yes, 4e is more reliant on positioning than 3.x or 2e. However, that is required for making the tactical game as interesting as it is - in fact, to replace the logistical game with the tactical game as the primary cause of success or failure in encounters.
For groups that don't like needing a positioning marker of some sort (my group used to use cut-up index cards), this is frustrating... but the goal was to design the best D&D possible, and to do that, a decision had to be made about whether or not to strongly support the use of minis. Once that choice was made, making the best D&D possible meant going all the way.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 6:19AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2002
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Hyperbole like that is really very unconvincing, you know. Try to put forth your points in something like a logical, believable form if you wish to be taken seriously.
Ok, when you don't want to read some of the many threads which are full of examples of this here is a short, incomplete list:
- 1-1-1 diagonals. Either everyone moves faster when walking in a specific direction in the game world or D&D worlds have a unimaginable, cuthulu like geometry
- When being struck down in combat you have a ~20% chance to simply stand up again in a quite good condition instead of being killed
- People, especially martial ones can only perform basic actions every 5 minutes
- You can't kill people while they sleep
In addition to this mechanical believability breakers there are also many design decisions which break the believability like
- PCs are not normal, hard trained members of their race but mutants with exceptional powers
- Every PC can do everything
- If it exists there must be a reasonable chance for the PCs to fight it (good for a diablo world, bad for a living one).
Whenever there is a decision between streamlining and believability 4E goes for streamlining (even when the speed gain by this is only minimal or nonexistant) which makes a good boardgame but a bad RPG.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 6:26AM
#16
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Whenever there is a decision between streamlining and believability 4E goes for streamlining (even when the speed gain by this is only minimal or nonexistant) which makes a good boardgame but a bad RPG.
I actually feel the opposite. If I'm going to be paying for what is effectively just a set of rules to play make-believe to, I'd rather have those rules run as simply and elegantly as possible. I can add in the level of "realistic" stuff that I want, whether that be an auto-coup de grace on a sleeping target or a more complicated way of adjudicating diagonal movement.
Basically, give me a base system that runs like a dream and has minimal clunkiness, and let me decide what gets added on top.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 8:11AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2008
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While I understand the points of views of some anti-4e players, I wonder about the reasons behind their points of view. Arguing that D&D 4e isn't realistic is one thing, but arguing in favor of 3e as being somehow more realistic bugs me. The same as claiming that 4e is far too oriented towards combat.
There have been enough discussions of the system silliness in 3e so I won't repeat them here, but the too combat-oriented thing is something I should address. Consider a 20th level commoner. He is an ordinary guy. Grew up on a farm all his life. Tended cows. Raised crops. Sat around on the porch and chewed tobacco and watched the grass grow. Never had to pick up a sword or a spear or a crossbow. Maybe he knows how to swing a stick.
Now take a 1st level fighter. A trained soldier. An apprentice in the art of war. He can use any weapon used by any army in the world. He knows the art of using armor and riding horses. He can power-through an enemy and slay two in one blow. Chad the Fighter walks up to Jeb the Farmer and swings a longsword at him: a stunning blow! A critical strike, the best he can do! Let's see. . . maximized x2 damage. . . assume 18 STR. . . 24 hit points. . . Commoners get an average of 2.5 hp per level. . . assume 10 CON. . . that's only half his HP. And that's the MOST damage Chad can do.
Jeb the Farmer looks up at Chad and says, "I've still got plenty of hit points left, boya." Then he picks up a club (simple weapon) and beats the living daylights out of Chad the Fighter. Chad has an armor class of 20? Jeb still hits 50% of the time with his first attack and 25% of the time with his second. He is, literally, ten times more proficient in combat than Chad is.
All so that we can make Jeb the farmer the best damn Profession: Farmer in the world.
D&D is all about combat. If you want to create noncombatant characters and do interesting social roleplay, may I suggest SilCore or White Wolf? They do that so much better, if you ask me.
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 8:24AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Dec 24, 2004
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- People, especially martial ones can only perform basic actions every 5 minutes
No, they perform exploits: extraordinary attacks every 5 minutes. A basic attack can be done anytime: in fact attacks of oppotunity are only basic attacks. You can do a AoP with exploits.
- You can't kill people while they sleep.
Um, unconsciousness gives combat advantage + deal auto hit with melee (ranged gets a bonus). Wheher are you getting your info? This what unconscious means:
:Unconscious: All Melee Attacks against you are automatic critical hits, maximizing all dice.
All other attacks against you gain a +4 bonus; all enemies have Combat Advantage against you, making the bonus to Non-Melee Attacks +6. You cannot flank enemies or help an ally gain flanking.
You cannot make Opportunity Attacks or use immediate actions. On your turn you take no actions, but can still make saving throws.
"If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you."
and
"Go beyond the impossible, and kick reason to the curb"
Kamina, from Gurren Lagann
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 8:41AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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And as for this...
> - When being struck down in combat you have a ~20% chance to simply
> stand up again in a quite good condition instead of being killed
I take it you didn't watch Fellowship of the Ring? This is basically the Boromir death scene - in 4E terms, he rolled 20 twice in a row. (And he certainly wasn't in "quite good condition" each time he got back up.)
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5 years ago ::
Mar 06, 2008 - 8:58AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2002
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No, they perform exploits: extraordinary attacks every 5 minutes.
Like tripping other people....
Um, unconsciousness gives combat advantage + deal auto hit with melee (ranged gets a bonus). Wheher are you getting your info?{quote]
A CdG now apparently only does maximum damage (Enworld). Now how often will you have to hit a sleeping lvl 20 fighter till you kill him? And will this fighter stay asleep after you did hit him for 3-4 rounds?
I take it you didn't watch Fellowship of the Ring? This is basically the Boromir death scene - in 4E terms, he rolled 20 twice in a row. (And he certainly wasn't in "quite good condition" each time he got back up.)[/quote]
When you roll a 20 in 4E you come back with 25% of your HP left. That is a bit more than what Boromir managed to do.
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