|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 1:02PM
#241
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
Okay, too many points, so you'll forgive me if I don't go back through all that and dig up quotes.  I'm addressing general complaints I've seen through the whole of the tread. First off, healing surges: Assuming that HP is an abstraction, that it does reflect morale as much as anything else, I don't see an issue with healing surges. At least, not anymore than how other editions handled it. Why a hit would take less overall from a high level character I could understand, as they would be able to dodge out of the way at the very last second, making a potentially serious wound into a mere nick. That makes much less sense with healing though. Why would something that would once heal a serious wound on someone once only heal nicks now? Do the gods hate high level characters? Seems to me that previous systems were a bit mixed on just how they wanted to handle HP. Now, at least as an abstraction, it seems to be handled more consistently. How is it that previous editions made more sense again? Skills: Okay, so people gain skill modifiers as they level. Is this really a problem? As was said before, the example that was being used earlier was a 20th level character. There's no excuse for a soon-to-be epic person to not be able to swim. Or at least to have a reasonable chance of trying. For lower level characters, it will be negligible, as it should be. And remember, being trained does give additional benefits. Why weren't those benefits listed on the DnDXP rules sheet then? My guess is that they weren't relevant to the delve. Which is probably why social or profession skills aren't listed there either. Doesn't mean they're not in the final game. Doesn't mean they are either, but that just makes my next point that we're arguing about a game that isn't even out yet, and none of us have much to base arguments on. It should be noted that this hotly debated swim skill isn't even present on that rule sheet. That doesn't mean it's not in the game, just that it wasn't necessary for the very specific task that rule writeup was made for. Of course it's not going to be written with roleplay in mind. Armor hampering Int modifiers to AC: You can be the smartest guy on earth, you can see everywhere at once and you know the best way to avoid any blow. That's only going to do you so much good with that big metal suit holding you down, chief. Has nothing do do with armor making you dumber, just that you can't take full advantage of your assets. Trips and other similar combat maneuvers: So the fighter has a once per encounter trip ability, and some have come to the conclusion that one can only trip once per encounter, and only a fighter can do it. How do we know that the figher encounter ability isn't something distinct from a more general trip maneuver? Again, we don't have a PHB available. We don't know. 1-1-1 movement: Okay, this bugs me a bit. Some of you said, 'if you can count to two, you can do 1-2-1 movement.' Well then, if this is the main problem, and you can count to two, then why not use 1-2-1 anyways? That's what I'm doing. My group can count to two. :P Of all the complaints, this is the one that's most easily fixed. Hell, I may just go with 1-1-1 for a while just to see how it works. It is just an abstraction, after all, and if it works the same for anyone, no one's getting an advantage out of it. If people find a way to do something truly outlandish with it, then I'll fix it.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 1:04PM
#242
|
Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2004
|
It only seems that way. Statiscally, you have an average of 6 rounds before you die from 3 failed rolls...
Well, on round 5 you have a 40% chance of already being dead, and on round 6 the chance is 56%, so yes, you have a fair chance of being alive past 6 rounds.. as long as no one keeps beating on you.
The "double strike" on one is an option, but I'm not going to try it until I have gotten the feeling in actual play that people are abusing the knowledge that they have slightly more time of people being "safely alive" than your optional rule allows.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 2:50PM
#243
|
Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2008
|
Call them what you want, and it will still be a rose. You CANNOT heal surface wounds, scratches, or bruises in seconds. All of those will contribute to your losing conciousness faster in the next fight. You might not feel a bruise, but boy will you feel it in spades when someone hits you there the second time. Adrenalin allows you to TEMPORARILY ignore pain, when it's done, you will feel it, and often be in worse shape because of it. It does not ever heal.
yes... you can lose conciousness from scratches... might want to rethink that sentence there...
And I'm pretty much going to have to disagree on most of your arguments. There is this thing called CRITICAL THINKING (I capitalized it for you so that you can easily reference it while reading this post, in case you forget^^). It means that you AVOID EMOTIONAL REASONING (you believe that there is no reason someone can get a "second wind") and being open to ALTERNATE POSSIBILITIES (that in fact, you might just be wrong)
Perhaps I'm being naive in thinking that you'll come to your senses and let this thread die... but I can hope.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 3:36PM
#244
|
Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2008
|
For your reading pleasure... doomsday: 3e... on the subject of healing... http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game … 2a1ab12aed
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 3:59PM
#245
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
For your reading pleasure... doomsday: 3e... on the subject of healing...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game … 2a1ab12aed
"Experienced characters no longer take weeks longer to heal than someone who just picked up a sword yesterday? This is madness!"
Oh 2E natural healing, how I had forgotten your silliness. I lol'd.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 4:05PM
#246
|
Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
|
First off, healing surges: Assuming that HP is an abstraction, that it does reflect morale as much as anything else, I don't see an issue with healing surges. At least, not anymore than how other editions handled it. Why a hit would take less overall from a high level character I could understand, as they would be able to dodge out of the way at the very last second, making a potentially serious wound into a mere nick. That makes much less sense with healing though. Why would something that would once heal a serious wound on someone once only heal nicks now? Do the gods hate high level characters? Seems to me that previous systems were a bit mixed on just how they wanted to handle HP. Now, at least as an abstraction, it seems to be handled more consistently. How is it that previous editions made more sense again?
Well, basically my arguement was that 4e seems to be making hit points much more (if not purely) abstract.
Other claimed that they were always (some claimed purely) abstract. Debate ensued.
Either way, IMO, 4e seems less realistic.
The reason is simple. The "injuries" that you sustain can kill your character, and you cannot heal during the battle (even if you find a way to catch a breather)...
Yet, you can heal all of the injuries back to full five minutes after the battle.
Basically, I cannot reconcile how the injuries that can kill you can be so easily shaken off within five minutes.
The sleeping for 6 hours exaberates the issues ten fold (IMO).
Skills: Okay, so people gain skill modifiers as they level. Is this really a problem?
It could be. A rogue should be better at picking locks (IMO) than a fighter...
Also, some have claimed that we should just base it on stats, but this is problematic as well.
1. It does not reflect training, just natural talent.
2. Drizzt should not be better at picking locks than a thief, just because he has a better dexterity...
Trips and other similar combat maneuvers: So the fighter has a once per encounter trip ability, and some have come to the conclusion that one can only trip once per encounter, and only a fighter can do it. How do we know that the figher encounter ability isn't something distinct from a more general trip maneuver? Again, we don't have a PHB available. We don't know.
While we do not know for sure, it seems to go against what little we do know.
And, I believe the general point is that if a PC cannot attempt to trip but once per combat, it is not very realistic...
How is it that previous editions made more sense again?
Because you could simply use magic to explain the inconsistancies....
P.S. People keep saying that you had to have a cleric to heal in 3.5. That is not quite true...
Druids (and bards) had access to healing spells.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 4:06PM
#247
|
Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2008
|
I started 3.5, so I liked a lot about it, but as I look at this old pages, I realize all this moaning and complaining will sum up into something that I already enjoyed. A good game with good friends.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 03, 2008 - 5:10PM
#248
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
Oh, I'll concede that the way HP and healing are being handled this edition isn't even remotely realistic. I'm just saying that it's no more unrealistic than earlier editions, just in a different way. It leads to a different pace of play. There's no logical reason for a healing spell to bring Farmer Joe back from the brink of death, but for the same spell to have a negligible effect on Rurik, Slayer of Tiamat. There was no logical reason back in 1 and 2E why Farmer Joe could sleep for a couple nights and be fully healed, and Rurik would have to rest for weeks for the same effect. If I have to pick one set of ludicrous healing rules over another, at least the new set seems more internally consistent, and leads to a more fun pace. Make no mistake though, every system for tracking health and healing that has ever been used in any edition of D&D, and most other RPGs, is ludicrous. Should a rogue have a better chance at picking a lock than a fighter? Hell yes. That's why rogues train the skill, and get benefits for being trained. I don't remember seeing if there were trained benefits for that skill on that rulesheet, but again, it may have been because it wasn't relevant. Maybe that delve had no locked doors. From what I heard, it was almost pure combat, so that would make sense. I'll agree that it's not realistic for a character to only be able to attempt a trip once per combat. I'm just saying we really don't know enough about the combat rules to judge if that's always the case, and not just for 'Fighter Bob's Super Effective Trip o' Doom'. Maybe that particular maneuver requires a very specific opening that rarely comes about. And you can still use magic to explain away the inconsistencies. You can also say that the PCs are the main characters of the story, and the main characters deserve a death worthy of song. The PC/NPC rule divide isn't for everyone I understand, but for some of us, it makes perfect sense that fate smiled on Boromir (perfect example of healing surges and combat stabilization in use) or Achilles a bit more than the guy who made Achilles' sandals. I don't see them as 'mutants' as some people have labeled 4E characters, but heroes of legend. And heroes of legend shouldn't die from the first kobold arrow that hits them, and shouldn't be laid up for weeks after a battle. Fate's chosen fight on, and so the game keeps going. Realistic? Not a chance, and I've always had other games I played if I wanted that. Fun? Sounds like it so far, yeah.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2008 - 8:34AM
#249
|
Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2002
|
I have yet to see a decent expplanation as to how a character, beaten down to negative hitpoints, rolls lucky (20) and gets up with 25% of his health back.
Then, sleeps for 6 hours and is completely and totally uninjured.
Without the benefit of magic!
The guy was one sword swipe from a pine box! How did he manage to heal so many freakin' injuries, completely in 6 hours??
I can understand if he gainned a percentage of them back or something. He 'pushes through the pain' as so many here keep saying.
But this is like an episode of the Simpsons, where no matter how badly injured a character, he's back by the next episode!
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2008 - 9:42AM
#250
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
I have yet to see a decent expplanation as to how a character, beaten down to negative hitpoints, rolls lucky (20) and gets up with 25% of his health back.
Then, sleeps for 6 hours and is completely and totally uninjured.
Without the benefit of magic!
The guy was one sword swipe from a pine box! How did he manage to heal so many freakin' injuries, completely in 6 hours??
I can understand if he gainned a percentage of them back or something. He 'pushes through the pain' as so many here keep saying.
But this is like an episode of the Simpsons, where no matter how badly injured a character, he's back by the next episode!
No. The game is South Park and everyone plays Kenny
|
|
|
