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6 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2007 - 10:15PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2004
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Observation: I've played a few hp-based systems with "ablative" armour systems (armour provides bonus HP that is eroded) and with "DR" armour. My experience is that if these values are significant compared to (PC) hit points, they just don't work well.
Star Frontiers and Battlelords both had ablative armour (or shields), often at several times the number of hit points on a PC. This armour became the PCs hit points, and without it, any weapon useful against a PCs armour would crush the player within. There are systems built around this mechanic (eg Marathon/Halo computer games), but as a mechanic for an RPG where characters may or may not be armoured it works poorly.
DR armour has a similar problem. Warhammer Fantasy and RuneQuest both have situations where a DR-style defense exists at a level similar to or exceeding hit points. Again, you get an arms race: any weapon that is at least marginally effective against DR armour mushes those without it.
D&D has both these concepts (temporary hit points and DR or various resistances respectively), but (in 3.5) manages to avoid these issues, primarily because character HP are high enough that temporary hp and DR primarily have a "extend lifespan" rather than "primary defense" effect. As level (and damage) increases, DR does suffer from the problem of being "negligible or insurmountable", depending on the attacker.
Tangentially, I actually find that AC is a "better" representation of armour than DR. In both pre-gunpowder and modern settings, the role of armour is primarily to render attacks ineffective over the region it covers. Relatively softer armours (leather, flak vests) do allow some bleed-through, but this typically converts serious wounds into bruising. Serious damage occurs when the attack either avoids the armour or a very powerful attack punches straight through.
AC can be seen to model most of this; though it doesn't allow much for "leaking" damage on a "miss". DR, in contrast, applies an all-over reduction; this doesn't represent avoiding armour and - unless ridiculously high - doesn't manage "powerful blow straight through" either.
I'm sure a hybrid could be used (see UA for an initial attempt), though I'm not convinced the extra complexity to make it work well makes for a flowing game.
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6 years ago ::
Nov 10, 2007 - 9:01PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2004
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My hybrid solution works like this: *BAB would be used in both attacks and AC (changing the acronym to BCB (Base Combat Bonus)) *Armor would be DR with maybe a little AC bump (+1 or +2 max). But there would be a bypass number so that if a monster rolls really high then the DR does not help. So... A 5th level elf wearing chainmail and a 16 dex. would have a 18 AC (10 base, +5 BCB, +3 Dex= 18) with a DR of say 7 and a Bypass AC of 23 (10 base, +5 BCB, +3 Dex, +5 chain= 23). So if he is attacked and the attacker rolls a 17 he misses entirely (most likely parried via the BCB), If the attacker rolls a 19 the attack hits but it does 7 less damage due to the armor. If the attacker rolls a 23 the attack goes through unabated. There you go, my pitch. It has been stolen from several different sources but I like it. 
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6 years ago ::
Nov 11, 2007 - 4:34AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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I just half the effectiveness of armor but grant the players a defence bonus similar to Star Wars.
It means that a fighter in full plate is still a meaningful opponent, but a man in a bedshirt and a rapier can still contribute.
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6 years ago ::
Nov 11, 2007 - 10:58AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2004
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If my character cannot run around dressed only in his undies waving a sick around and still be hard to hit, i'll be ******. :D
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6 years ago ::
Nov 12, 2007 - 9:57AM
#5
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My hybrid solution works like this:
*BAB would be used in both attacks and AC (changing the acronym to BCB (Base Combat Bonus))
*Armor would be DR with maybe a little AC bump (+1 or +2 max). But there would be a bypass number so that if a monster rolls really high then the DR does not help.
So...
A 5th level elf wearing chainmail and a 16 dex. would have a 18 AC (10 base, +5 BCB, +3 Dex= 18) with a DR of say 7 and a Bypass AC of 23 (10 base, +5 BCB, +3 Dex, +5 chain= 23). So if he is attacked and the attacker rolls a 17 he misses entirely (most likely parried via the BCB), If the attacker rolls a 19 the attack hits but it does 7 less damage due to the armor. If the attacker rolls a 23 the attack goes through unabated.
There you go, my pitch. It has been stolen from several different sources but I like it.
This is interesting because this is almost exactly what we use in my games.
- BAB applies to AC (perhaps I should start using BCB )
- Armour gives a bonus to AC (less than as written) but also provides DR
- DR can be by-passed by hitting the target by at least 5 over the AC (we list AC as two numbers; e.g. AC 16/21 or AC 22/27 where the first number hits but DR applies and the second number hits and by-passes DR. This '+5' rule applies to everything across the board, be it DR from armour or natural DR.
- Max dex limits from armour have been lowered a bit more so that in heavier armours you may be trading off dex bonus AC for some DR. High dex characters are just as viable in little to no armour as low dex in armour.
- at least 1 point of damage is always done with a successful hit even if DR is greater than damage rolled.
The PiazzaA renaissance of the Old Worlds. Where any setting can be explored, any rules system discussed, and any combination of the two brought to life.
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6 years ago ::
Nov 12, 2007 - 5:55PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2004
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DR can be by-passed by hitting the target by at least 5 over the AC (we list AC as two numbers; e.g. AC 16/21 or AC 22/27 where the first number hits but DR applies and the second number hits and by-passes DR. This '+5' rule applies to everything across the board, be it DR from armour or natural DR.
while i have not actually implemented the system I proposed in my game (considering I'm only the player). I think it would be more to my liking to have a by-pass that reflected the nature of the armor itself. Say, a bypass +5 for shirts, +8 for full suit, and have monsters with innate armor have their own bypass number like Smaug who only had one small spot on his hide not covered in impenetrable armor. To me that would be a bypass of +20 or more.
It is nice to see that there are some like minded individuals out there.
I am however waiting with baited breath to see what WoTC is doing regarding armor and to hit and DR in this next go around (a.k.a. 4th ed.)
Cheers 
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6 years ago ::
Nov 12, 2007 - 6:17PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2005
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This is interesting because this is almost exactly what we use in my games.
- BAB applies to AC (perhaps I should start using BCB )
- Armour gives a bonus to AC (less than as written) but also provides DR
- DR can be by-passed by hitting the target by at least 5 over the AC (we list AC as two numbers; e.g. AC 16/21 or AC 22/27 where the first number hits but DR applies and the second number hits and by-passes DR. This '+5' rule applies to everything across the board, be it DR from armour or natural DR.
- Max dex limits from armour have been lowered a bit more so that in heavier armours you may be trading off dex bonus AC for some DR. High dex characters are just as viable in little to no armour as low dex in armour.
- at least 1 point of damage is always done with a successful hit even if DR is greater than damage rolled.
I like this adaptation, I think I might start using it, but I think I'll modify it, so that the armor adds the full bonus, but a hit over the total AC surpasses the entire DR.
This would also allow for the return of called shots to bypass armor as well...
I also like the BCB, very innovative, and makes melee combatants nigh unstoppable.
So a 4th level fighter Dex 12 in full plate would have AC 10+1+8
+4=23, the DR would be 8 but any hit of 24 or better would bypass the DR. Any hit over his touch AC would be reduced by DR. Touch AC would equal 10+BCB+DEX. half suits (chain shirt and breastplate) should only provide half the AC.
In addition each type of armor should be susceptible to a penetrating type of damage (unless it's enchanted) for example, full plate was still vulnerable to crossbow bolts and later on blackpowder weapons so it's DR would only be half as effective against piercing weapons.
I was reading the OP post again, and I realized something, soft armors generally reduce deadly impacts to bruising...so the DR could reduce X amount of damage from lethal to non-lethal damage... getting clocked on the head by an ogre's club would usually pulp your head, but a concussion and being knocked unconscious is a good representation...
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6 years ago ::
Nov 12, 2007 - 7:12PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2007
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The Answer can be found in Iron Heroes with variable DR.
Plate: 1d8/magic DR
It works pretty well.
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6 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2007 - 5:21AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2004
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One advantage of a two-tier system is that it gives another dimension of armour benefits (albeit at the cost of complexity). The current system really only has 3 independent values: cost, AC, and Max Dex/ASF/ACP. And cost becomes a non-issue after a couple of levels anyway.
AC/DR adds a fourth independent variable, and also allows modelling some armours a little better. Some examples (numbers may need calibration):
Padded vest: AC +3, DR 5
Padded shirt: AC +4, DR 5
Leather vest: AC +3, DR 10
Leather jerkin: AC +4, DR 10
Chain shirt: AC +4, DR 20
Breastplate: AC +4, DR 40
Leather hauberk: AC +5, DR 10
Arm/Leg greaves: +1 each
Chain mail: AC +7, DR 20
Half plate: AC +7, DR 40
Full plate: AC +9, DR 40
The idea I've tried to capture is that material (cloth/leather/chain/plate) grants DR levels, while coverage grants AC. Heavier materials have a small negative effect on Max Dex/ASF/ACP. Increased coverage has a larger negative effect.
One could add a DR penetration advantage to piercing weapons, but that might be unnecessarily complex.
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6 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2007 - 7:42AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2004
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Padded vest: AC +3, DR 5
Padded shirt: AC +4, DR 5
Leather vest: AC +3, DR 10
Leather jerkin: AC +4, DR 10
Chain shirt: AC +4, DR 20
Breastplate: AC +4, DR 40
Leather hauberk: AC +5, DR 10
Arm/Leg greaves: +1 each
Chain mail: AC +7, DR 20
Half plate: AC +7, DR 40
Full plate: AC +9, DR 40
Whoa, Nom! Your numbers are a bit off. The armor your describing is tank armor and could take a direct hit from a Howitzer shell! If you divide the DR by 4 I think you have a realistic and workable number. The AC plus I assume is for the bypass, and that is pretty spot on.
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