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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A The trend is loss of DM control and its bad.
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Switch to Forum Live View The trend is loss of DM control and its bad.
5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 6:16PM #1
wrightdjohn
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Posts: 65
I like nearly everything about 4th edition. I eagerly await its release and I intend on immediately running a campaign. I felt the same way about 3rd edition. It was vastly superior to 2nd in my opinion. In fact I have welcomed all new editions of D&D.

As for all products in an era (and not just the rules), the worst era was 2nd edition. The support products were lousy.

Anyway now to my point. I believe that the trend has been from each edition to the next a weakening of DM control. Here's a contrast between 1st edition and the coming 4th...

1st Edition:
1. Rule 0 is actually in the books and positioned to stand out. The last page of the DMG.
2. The DMG goes into some detail on how to introduce both money and magic items into the game. It is assumed that doing these things wrong would wreck a campaign. This responsibility lay on the DM.
3. Players are specifically told: do not read the monster manual or the dungeon masters guide unless you are a dungeon master.
4. Dungeon masters are presumed to be running their own custom campaigns and to be running multiple generations of characters (played by different people often) in those campaigns.
5. Most commercial modules are designed to fit in any of the campaign settings. (e.g. Tomb of Horrors, Giants, White Plume Mountain) They often gave multiple ideas on where to put a module in each setting.

I believe that half the DMs out there still believe in those basic tenants. I would say it is the Gygaxian style of DMing.

4th Edition (or where not known 3rd).
1. Rule 0 is no where to be found. Perhaps in 3.0 there may be some minor references.
2. Players are able to translate magic items to and from gold at will. This tight coupling of gold and magic results in less control by the DM about what enters his campaign (without resorting to rule 0 of course). So the 1st Edition goal of a DM controlling the flow of gold and magic pretty much went out the window. He has to control both to control either one which is often non-optimal.
3. Most players buy and read the Monster Manual and the Dungeon Masters guide. Nothing discourages this in the rules. In fact in 4th edition the magic items are being put in the players handbook. Is knowledge of every magic item common knowledge in the default setting? Apparently so..
4. DMs are typically assumed to be running in a commercial setting. Modules are often specifically for a setting. I know they tell you you can modify it for any setting and I don't disagree. The difference is that now they put the work on the DM who is not in that setting.


Now this all this does not affect me at all. I've been running campaigns for some time and I've always enforced the 1st edition approach. Rule 0 is always in effect. Unfortunately new DMs coming in are being led down the path of destruction because they are starting with the faulty 3rd/4th edition approach.

Now I'm sure some of you will whine that I'm ruining the players fun. Well my personal experience has been that those DMs using a 4th edition approach are not nearly as sought after as those using the 1st edition approach. The reason is that a good DM is already trying really hard to make the world interesting, mysterious, and fun. He analyzes his groups and tries to create challenges that suit their interests. So a good DM is a benevolent dictator. Anyone who isn't benevolent doesn't have a group. I've never really had any trouble getting a group.

A case in point. If a DM introduced a magic sword that forced enemies to save vs DC 50 or be disentegrated I haven't met the player or group that would refuse it. They may admit long after the campaign is over that they thought it too powerful. Players though are focused on their own characters and not the campaign as a whole.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 6:35PM #2
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,967
I have failed to notice any such proposed trend.
Are you sure this is not simply anecdotal evidence?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 6:43PM #3
wrightdjohn
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Posts: 65
Well its clear that 3rd Edition exemplifies most of the stuff I put under 4th edition. The only extra things I know of right now are that magic items are now in the players handbook and they are available purely for gold. This makes the tie between magic and gold complete. In 3rd, x.p. was a limiting factor.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 6:50PM #4
Bantam
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 266
But don't DMs still determine if the particular magic item is available in campaign before players can buy it? So magic item obtainment is still in DM's countrol?

Plus, magic item pricing is not as forumlaic as 3.X, I believe. The magic items in the PHB serve as base examples and it's up to the DM to judge pricing of new magic items based on its abilities compared to the base level/abilities/cost of the ones in the PHB.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 6:54PM #5
Wizardmon
Date Joined: Dec 15, 2006
Posts: 1,938
Keep in mind that we have not recieved much information on the exact contents of the DMG. I have heard from the various remarks on the book that it is 'absolutely outstanding, a must read for all DM's, etc.' If this is the case, your point couldn't be more wrong: the new tools for the DM and other DM techniques presented in the book will give DM's more "control" over their games than ever.

It would be silly for a DM to say "there is no mithral in this campaign setting" without good reason, but it would be even sillier if the players were allowed to trump his ruling.
Let your voice be heard! Tell WotC to Publish D&D 4e under the OGL!
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 6:57PM #6
Pinwarp
Date Joined: Jan 10, 2006
Posts: 165
Couple things,

1. 4ed isn't out yet...we don't know if there is a Rule 0. 3.5 had it, although it wasn't labeled rule 0, the books specifically states that the DM has the last say, period.

2. We don't know how exactly treasure works in 4ed. I'm sure the DMG will have a lengthy explanation on how and when to give out treasure, as well as tips on how to keep things in line.

3. Really, just cause the book doesn't say "DON"T READ ME', doesn't mean the DM can't tell his players. Besides, in many groups, DM is a rotating role, so it's only natural for most players to have at least glanced through either book. Also, just because the PLAYER knows whats in the MM, doesn't mean the CHARACTER does. Abusing OoG knowledge is Meta-gaming, and any gamer worth his salt (and DM), will stomp this out pretty quick.


4. Putting the work on the DM sounds like giving the DM total control on how and where to use modules, which is totally opposite of your point.

just my 2 cents.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 7:08PM #7
Nautilus
Date Joined: Jan 4, 2007
Posts: 1,677

4th Edition (or where not known 3rd).
1. Rule 0 is no where to be found. Perhaps in 3.0 there may be some minor references.
2. Players are able to translate magic items to and from gold at will. This tight coupling of gold and magic results in less control by the DM about what enters his campaign (without resorting to rule 0 of course). So the 1st Edition goal of a DM controlling the flow of gold and magic pretty much went out the window. He has to control both to control either one which is often non-optimal.
3. Most players buy and read the Monster Manual and the Dungeon Masters guide. Nothing discourages this in the rules. In fact in 4th edition the magic items are being put in the players handbook. Is knowledge of every magic item common knowledge in the default setting? Apparently so..
4. DMs are typically assumed to be running in a commercial setting. Modules are often specifically for a setting. I know they tell you you can modify it for any setting and I don't disagree. The difference is that now they put the work on the DM who is not in that setting.


1. We don't have the 4e PHB, so it's unfair to infer that Rule 0 won't be mentioned. 3rd Edition mentioned it at the start of the PHB.

2. Even in the freewheeling world of 4e, I doubt very much that PCs will have the amazing alchemical talent to transmute gold into any magic item of their choice. They either have to make it or buy it. While I don't know what rules will be in place for PC-initiated magic item acquisition, it's a given that those who want to make an item will require means, materials and time. The DM should be able to rule when any of these aren't available.

3. Hey, most players bought and read the DMG and Monster Manual when I played 1st Ed! That's always happened. In 4e, there'll be no reason to discourage it, as there's nothing in there which players can gain an advantage by learning. Except maybe traps and artifacts, but both are easily disguised. As for the Monster Manual, good luck to the player who's trying to memorise it: a cool 500 monsters are in there, each of them changeable at the DM's whim.

4. The module list for 2008, that I've seen, is nearly exclusively edition-neutral. There's one or two FR modules, and that's about it.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 7:55PM #8
Eldritch_Lord
Date Joined: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 4,420

Nautilus]4. The module list for 2008, that I've seen, is nearly exclusively edition-neutral. There's one or two FR modules, and that's about it.


To expand on this, we know that there will be a CS per year but that materials will be more limited than in 3e and prior. TSR went under because of too many settings, and WotC pulled back settings in 3e, setting Greyhawk as default and emphasizing FR and Eberron. The devs have confirmed that 4e will have one CS per year, which will have a CS book, a player's guide, a few adventures...and that's it wrote:

4. The module list for 2008, that I've seen, is nearly exclusively edition-neutral. There's one or two FR modules, and that's about it.[/quote]
To expand on this, we know that there will be a CS per year but that materials will be more limited than in 3e and prior. TSR went under because of too many settings, and WotC pulled back settings in 3e, setting Greyhawk as default and emphasizing FR and Eberron. The devs have confirmed that 4e will have one CS per year, which will have a CS book, a player's guide, a few adventures...and that's it; aside from the big 2, the settings will get one production run and that's it. The vast majority of books will be CS-neutral.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 7:57PM #9
LGMoses
Date Joined: Nov 11, 2006
Posts: 222
yeah, i've noticed too. The more the rules are written in stone the harder it is to houserule as players get uppity. Players seem to feel they deserve a chew toy cuz they bought the book.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2008 - 8:22PM #10
Xoaroidac
Date Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 6
First off the DM has always had complete control. In the DMG (a friend is borrowing mine so I can't give you a page reference) it says that the rules are just guidelines and the DM has final say.
Also the players can't just change gold for magic items, they need to find a place that sells them. Oh look shops have shopkeepers, oh and shopkeepers are NPCs. Now who runs NPCs? That's right the DM. If the players want gauntlets of ogre power and the DM doesn't want them to have it then the shopkeeper can just say we are out of stock when the players ask to purchase some. Never has players been able to snap thier fingers, have gold disappear and have the magic item show up.
Finally just because someone in the group buys one of the new books doesn't mean the DM has to allow it in the campaign. If the DM doesn't like what is in the book he can ban all or part of the book. Anything new should be approved by the DM.
This is how I run my games. I give my players alot of leeway and we normally skip the shop scene because I can trust most of thier decisions to buy stuff, but I still want the to ask me before they buy most things. If things get out of hand I can always go back to the time consuming method of having to make them find a shop that has the item for sale.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't agree with your assesment. The DMs have complete control, it has always been setup that way.
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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A The trend is loss of DM control and its bad.
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