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5 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2008 - 11:25AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2006
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I was reading the self-stated final column of Confessions of a Full-Time Wizard and, along the way, something made me stop dead in my reading and post on here. Personally I would prefer to hear the words “resort,” “day spa,” or “theme park” but almost every place we’re hitting has the words “rock,” “out,” and “back” in it. Looks like we’re going to need a climber’s kit. Tabitha’s version would have a grappling hook, hammer and ten pitons. She would also gain a +2 bonus on her Athletics checks while climbing.
That's right. Athletics is in. Obviously, it will include Climb. But, will it also roll up Jump, Tumble, Balance, and Swim?
This is an aspect I was hoping would not make it into 4e to be 100% honest. Now, we're going to have to keep in mind so many different conditional modifiers with one skill that it can be intimidating to any DM. Seriously, how long is that skill description going to be in the PHB? We have to keep in mind that some creatures can't perform certain athletic aspects at all.
I'll reserve some judgement until I play it, but I'm still skeptical about this change.
EDIT: There are numerous other whoppers I'm reading here.
Probably the most important tool I can get my hands on is a staff of defense... Any old wizard could use an ordinary implement to focus her spells, but an enchanted implement is handier than a collapsible java press. Should Tabitha be sporting one of these charming bad boys, she’d get an enhancement bonus on her attack and damage rolls with her arcane powers. Should I be sporting one of these—well—I’d probably be playing a wizard in a D&D campaign. It’s too bad, because the staff can double as a weapon. Should one of those sneaky-ass crocodiles, clingy stingers or disemboweling koala bears (no, really?) get all up in my business, I’d gain a +1 to my Armor Class (which right now is -3 thanks to a wind resistant jacket and a couple year’s worth of kickboxing classes – and yes, -3 is an improvement)... I could also purchase a hippogriff to carry my load for a 1,000 gp
The major points are italicized and bolded for your convenience. The last one about the hippogriff is no big deal, but I happen to like hippogriffs and thought it was cool to know they cost 1,000 gp (this could very well be an exaggerated price for humor in her article, to be sure).
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5 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2008 - 6:10PM
#2
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I would imagine that Athletics would cover Climb, Jump and Swim. They're all Strength-based, and should have similar modifiers. I don't think it would need a particularly long description. My guess is that Tumble and Balance (and possibly Escape Artist) would be bundled into a skill called Acrobatics.
I think the -3 AC comment is just hyperbole (though wouldn't it be hilarious if they brought back THAC0 and the negative AC system!) and we already knew about enchanted implements adding to attack and damage with spells. 1000 gp for a trained hippogriff seems reasonable for a high-magic setting, and it would be nifty to have more interesting (and pricy) trained creatures right there in the equipment list, for campaigns where it would be appropriate to go to the market and buy a griffon or whatever.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2008 - 7:24PM
#3
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If I look for a common theme in what the Athletics skill encompasses, this is what I come up with: Getting past terrain obstacles.
So, if I'm right, Athletics will be what PCs use to scale, swim, leap over, or otherwise traverse the 'thang' in their way which impedes progress. Although being able to climb and swim are very different, it makes sense to lump them into the same skill because of the thematic similarity, and because some of the 'sub-skills' (Jump, Swim) wouldn't really pull their weight as full skills but are handy as part of the whole Athletics skill.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2008 - 7:52PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2006
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Betcha Tumble and Balance are part of athletics. 
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5 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2008 - 4:31AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2003
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This is an aspect I was hoping would not make it into 4e to be 100% honest. Now, we're going to have to keep in mind so many different conditional modifiers with one skill that it can be intimidating to any DM. Seriously, how long is that skill description going to be in the PHB?
I don't think I'd find it much harder to remember those random modifiers to apply to a subset of a skill than remembering they apply to one of four skills.
It won't be any longer than the three or four skills it contains were when added together.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2008 - 6:04AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Feb 14, 2008
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I don't think I'd find it much harder to remember those random modifiers to apply to a subset of a skill than remembering they apply to one of four skills.
It won't be any longer than the three or four skills it contains were when added together.
While it may be easy to apply those modifiers as needed, it's somewhat annoying to not be able to have a comprehensive skill list with all the modifiers already calculated. What about synergy bonuses? Are they getting rid of those?
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5 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2008 - 7:12AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2004
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This is something I have been concerned about since I heard that the SWSE was a “template” or whatever for 4e. With the simplification (oversimplification?) of the skill list, we have a proliferation of conditional modifiers. I’ve expressed this with my gaming group, and they agree.
If what is Climb, Jump, and Swim now are all rolled into Athletics, how do I create a character who was born and raised in the desert, who is proficient in scaling the cliffs and jumping the crevices of home, but who has never in his life seen a body of water more than four feet deep? If the skill Athletics is one of his trained, or class or whatever they are calling it now, he becomes equally good at climbing, jumping and swimming. The only to make this character in any way believable is to give him some sort of situational penalty to his Athletics, but only when he is swimming. With the system in place now, I just don't put any ranks into Swim.
The same goes for Perception, but this time with bonuses. We’ve all seen the stat blocks in the previews: +2 to Perception for spot checks.” I’m sure we will see such things as races or monsters that have bonuses only to hear things. And monsters that have a bonus to their acrobatics, but only for balance checks.
The DM cannot really be expected to keep track of all his players’ situational modifiers when he has to everything else to keep track of. And we all know that players tend to only remember their bonuses and penalties when it benefits them.
So, I am having trouble seeing how the new “half-sized” (by Design and Development admission) skill list is that much of an improvement if we have to now remember lots of situational modifiers. Hopefully someone else here can understand my concern and not just brush it off with “the new system is so much easier/better.”
In the end, I will just have to wait and see what our genius developers come up with…
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5 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2008 - 8:15AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2006
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It took me a bit longer than it should have to realize that Shelly was just ragging on herself with the -3 AC thing. :embarrass
I would imagine that kadeton is right about the distinction between Athletics and Acrobatics. Basing it off the pertaining ability scores just makes sense. Plus, piling too many aspects into one skill would make it a no-brainer to train in, thus throwing off the game balance by a small degree. It would be depressing to have a game with all players going through the effort of either multiclassing or getting a class training feat so they could get their hands on the one skill that encompasses all physical aspects of the game.
"Go, my little ninjas. Have fun!"
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5 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2008 - 8:51AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2003
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If you wanted a broader skill list you could probably (probably, haven't seen the skill list yet, obviously) split them back to roughly what they were in 3.5. Then multiply the number of trained skills each class gets by the average of the number of old skills rolled into a new skill.
So, if the average was 3 3.5 skills became 1 4E skills, then you would split them back out and multiply every classes' trained skills by 3. Not perfect, but if you use a Custom Character Sheet I can't see it being all that terribly difficult.
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5 years ago ::
Feb 19, 2008 - 9:15AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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I'm happy as a pig-in-you-know-what, as when I checked out Saga, I thought it was nifty that they combined Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble into one skill - Acrobatics, yet odd that they kept Climb, Jump and Swim separate, instead of combining them into one skill – Athletics.
Of course I and many others instantly house-ruled in Athletics.
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