|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 10:40AM
#141
|
Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2001
|
Well Archtyrant Terevoth, lets just agree to disagree, you are obviously of the school that thinks if it is not written, it doesn't exist, I on the other hand like to provide a sense of realism in my games and hence assume a level of dynamisism which I know is not explicitly written but IMO better deserving of the adventure then playing computer game style adventures.
Well, all I'm trying to convince you of is that it's a problem for the game at large, not necessarily your game. I certainly do believe that some DMs can and do negate this problem via time constraints and it works for their games. So yeah, I can certainly believe that you've figured out how to beat the problem with your group of players.
However, there are lots of games out there, that do have problems with this. So many so that I believe it's a problem that needs to be fixed. Considering it's also an issue with most modules, I think it's a pretty big deal.
Now even if you've tackled the problem, plenty of others have trouble with it. Hell, I've been DMing since 2nd edition and I still have trouble with adventure pacing. Either it happens to be too fast or too slow, and honestly, it's given me a bad taste in my mouth regarding doing timed adventures, because you have to set that time window with very slim timing, to pressure PCs not to rest, but give them enough time such that they can rest when they need to. And that's hard to do. And if I have trouble with it, I can bet that all inexperienced DMs are going to have lots of trouble with it.
So really, I'm just wondering, why not fix the problem? Even if it's not an issue in your game, it won't really hurt your game to implement it.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 12:36PM
#142
|
Date Joined:
Dec 26, 2007
|
i simply tell my casters to moderate what they use. there is no option to run back to base and recharge spells. if they burn through their supplies, then they just gotta deal with it. this teaches wizards how to play it smart.
i only had one player who insisted on casting EVERYTHING he could, and he learned that its not a good idea when he was crippled.
wizards are meant to soften up foes enough for the others to finish them off. or to finish off weakened foes. or to buff other players, or to summon minions. when a caster in my game tries to be the big gun i just let him burn through his spells, then hes stuck without.
i will not allow 1 player to slow the progress of the group so he can have the most fun. if a wizard wants to play like that then they will suffer for it.
most rpgers learn very quick that playing the game is more than brutal damage output. tactics play a much larger roll. its just like HP. if a warrior tanks til hes got 3 hp, hes screwed. there is no option to rest til hes all healed up.
i play my campaigns in a real time fashion. things are happening all the time even if the players are not witness to it. if they mess around and waste time they might miss a chance to kill the big boss or get the great treasure and its no ones fault but their own.
when i play a caster, i hoard my spells and only use what i need to. i can go 4-5 encounters and still have spells left over. besides, unless your fighting an army or your co players dont know what they are doing, no wizard will ever have to use all its spells to overcome an encounter. thats the differance between new players and skilled players.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 12:54PM
#143
|
Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2007
|
Thanks, HuntmasterAvatar! I couldn't have said it better. It is a case of resource conservation.
When I was playing spell casters years ago, I rarely ran out of spells, because I thought about what to cast and had the entire party in mind. If I did run out of spells, oh, well, that's life or possibly death. To hear some here speak the rest of teh party is merely there to protect the wizard. This was never the case in the games I played or mastered.
True, that is the role of the minions of the evil wizard.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 4:37PM
#144
|
Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2001
|
i simply tell my casters to moderate what they use. there is no option to run back to base and recharge spells. if they burn through their supplies, then they just gotta deal with it.
No they don't. They can just say "We head back to town."
And then you're freakin' screwed when they do. Because if your quest is time intensive it's out the window, and they have to start a new quest. You basically DM on the premise that the PCs won't call your bluff. Some PCs can and do say "well screw the quest, we got no spells left and will probably die if we attempt it anyway. "
Unless all your dungeons start with an indestructible adamantine slab blocking the exit, there's seriously no reason the PCs can't just leave if they want to.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 8:33PM
#145
|
Date Joined:
Dec 26, 2007
|
No they don't. They can just say "We head back to town."
And then you're freakin' screwed when they do. Because if your quest is time intensive it's out the window, and they have to start a new quest. You basically DM on the premise that the PCs won't call your bluff. Some PCs can and do say "well screw the quest, we got no spells left and will probably die if we attempt it anyway. "
Unless all your dungeons start with an indestructible adamantine slab blocking the exit, there's seriously no reason the PCs can't just leave if they want to.
as i said, normally there is no option to return to town and rest. and the other players would not want to stop what they are doing and make the return trip and then fight all the way back to their current point.
and as a DM i am never screwed, i have 5-12 choices for each quest/adventure so no matter what happens the story can progress. But again, if a wizard wants to bring the game to a screetching halt because he just has to cast all his spells asap, then hes very likely to be removed by a horrible accident. NPC casters are much easier to manage and do not slow the game at all. but my players are not new to casting and they learned that spells are like answers. you only need the right ones for each problem.
and yea there is a good reason why PC's can't leave when they want to. they have an objective. it they wanna farm XP then they can go fight in some area, but when they have a job to do their are people counting on them, and sometimes paying them. if they take to long then bad things can and will happen.
if casters want to rest after each battle then they should play a video game, in rp the option to saftly rest is not always there. and alot of the time, a "Town" is long long away. not every spot is considered safe to rest in. and sometimes if you sleep in turns, those who keep first watch might not get the chance to rest. so you have 1 fully recharged mage and 2 dead tired other characters.
i do not have this problem anymore after the one caster who played like this. he learned and showed the others why spell managment is so important.:D
As the DM i can never get screwed due to a players actions because its my job to plan for every event. its the players who suffer. and as a player i do not wanna break the flow of play just because our caster doesnt know how to moderate his spells.
worse comes to worse. everything in the next encounters are immune to magic.:P
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 9:04PM
#146
|
|
|
The problem with that kind of mentality, Huntmaster, is that, at some point, the countermeasures you impose become less of an adventure element, and more of a means to enforce a metagame concept of balance.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 9:06PM
#147
|
Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2001
|
and as a DM i am never screwed, i have 5-12 choices for each quest/adventure so no matter what happens the story can progress.
But again, if a wizard wants to bring the game to a screetching halt because he just has to cast all his spells asap, then hes very likely to be removed by a horrible accident.
"What's that wizard? You want to rest and ruin my carefully planned railroad plot? Ok, a big rock falls off the mountain and the wizard dies. Anybody else want to try to rest? Good, now let me look up how much damage you take from doing a forced march..."
It seems with your 5-12 choices you don't have a good solution for the PCs deciding to rest besides throw down the arbitrary hand of god and threatening them with instant death. If you need to go through such extreme measures like killing off PCs, that should throw up a big red flag that the rules may have a problem. That's what I'd call a rules hole.
and yea there is a good reason why PC's can't leave when they want to. they have an objective. it they wanna farm XP then they can go fight in some area, but when they have a job to do their are people counting on them, and sometimes paying them. if they take to long then bad things can and will happen.
The world wont blow up. Sure maybe they fail the quest. That can happen. But so what? Some PCs may not want to risk their skin like that, or may go out looking for quests that aren't so time intensive.
"Screw the village of blackwater and its crazy 5 hour timetable, lets go loot Myth Drannor."
And when the PCs get teleport, they can very well just rest whenever they please by teleporting back to town. No matter how hard you try, you won't stop them from resting when they want, not unless you just throw arbitrary restrictions at them and start making up rules.
i do not have this problem anymore after the one caster who played like this. he learned and showed the others why spell managment is so important.:D
And you apparently beat him into line by arbitrarily killing him whenever he tries to derail the choo-choo.
and as a player i do not wanna break the flow of play just because our caster doesnt know how to moderate his spells.
How about just changing the rules so PCs don't have to worry about this sort of thing anymore?
Basically you're advocating the rules are fine, when you say that the only reason your games don't fall apart is because you constantly threaten your PCs with the vindictive hand of God if they try to go outside the box that you've drawn for them.
If that's the case, why give them the option to step out of the box at all? With per encounter spell limitations, there's no reason to stop and rest and therefore people won't do it. And then that's like one less PC you've got to kill so that he plays the game the way you feel like it's supposed to be played.
worse comes to worse. everything in the next encounters are immune to magic.:P
Vindictive DMing doesn't solve anything and only leads to resentful players.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2008 - 9:20PM
#148
|
Date Joined:
Dec 26, 2007
|
again, i have only had this problem once and it was solved. its not very welcoming for my other players and myself to plan a game once a week, then get to gaming and every 40 mins require a rest period for only a single player. if all the players need or want to rest then its fine, but not for 1 player who will abuse it.
if you play all day everyday then i guess its not a problem, but if you play once a week for 2 hours then it becomes a problem, and it was my players that requested a lesson be taught to our mage.
i am not into beating on my players, i am into making the game as fun as it can be. so far i have never had a player complaint nor has anyone left my games. i had to remove the player who ran the caster because he simply didnt care if the other players wanted to progress. he had to waste time by using everything he could to gain max XP.
and a 5 hour time limit? in a story there are goals, these goals normally have limits of weeks, months or years. i do not have many restrictions. but npc's who just sit there waiting for the pc's to show up get boring. they have their own goals and they work to accomplish them. Many worlds dont change. they move slowly along with the players. my world is constantly changing. just like the real world.
heres a few ex samples for people whom seem to have a problem understanding this.
Darksun: you are traveling with a caravan that is carrying food. this food will begin to rot within 9 days. it takes 7 days to reach the town. you have only 1 chance per day to rest at night. if the wizard burns up all its spells then the mage has to suffer. the food will continue to rot. if the caravan arrives with rotted food, the players will be held accountable and be required to pay for the entire stock out of their pockets or be at risk of enslavement or death.
DragonLance: You must reach the Temple of Nereka within the timelimit inorder to aid the green gemstone man. if the party does not arrive in time the gemstone man fails and takhisis wins.
these are just samples, but they work to express my point. and as for being a mean DM, thats not my style. but after repeatedly speaking to a disruptive player and assigning penalties if the caster continues to kill the mood by being a power glutton then there are only two options left. kill the PC and have him make a new non-caster. or remove the player from the group. I didnt kill his pc but he was finally removed at the request of the other players.:D
players should learn to play the game. i am unwilling to nerf everything that everyone has a problem with, that creates a completely new game which loses its appeal. i play and run D&D. my players are fans of D&D. casters run outa spells if they use them all. so casters need to learn to moderate. or play a differant class. when i run outa spells as a caster, im not useless. i still have my items and my skills. wizards are not the focal point of a group, they are just a part of it. which they seem to forget sometimes.
|
|
|
