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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 12:52AM
#51
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I do like this system overall. It speeds up combat and removes randomness that's likely to be detrimental to the PCs.
Most importantly, though, this system makes the ability of Wizards (or Dragons) to roll a crit on a fireball (or breath weapon) actually viable without threatening one-shot TPK. I now understand how crits on area effects won't be a game breaker. I like it.
My question based on the "what's coming" preview still remains: What grim spectre of critical failure still looms over 4e? They presented the possibility of an article on critical failures, and this article did not deliver on that, so we don't know if the mechanic was intended to be elaborated on or disavowed originally. Those of us worried about it are still left to worry about it.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 1:14AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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Yes, the confirmation roll is gone. So why did we get rid of it? Because we, like so many players, had rolled crits only to have the confirmation roll miss. And we didn't like it. We don't think that many people did. (I look forward to reading the posts of people who disagree.)
With all due respect, Mr. Bonner, you are a munchkin.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 1:24AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2007
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Also I cannot pas and not to comment on infantile rationale behind removing crit confirmation roll. Sure failing that roll sucks, but so does failing any other roll! If we push such “reasoning” to its obvious conclusions we should dispose with all rolls and make all actions automatic success, that would speed up combat and sure please all the childish instant gratification #$%&.
Yay for the snowball fallacy. 
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 1:28AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2002
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I like it. Simple and effective. Don't like it - simple house rule crits do 2xMax + bonus. Too much? Oh scale to 1.5Max + bonus. Whatever.... it simplifies it, removes a die roll, ensures that it will not do less than what you could achieve with a normal hit (on average does almost double) and is just plain good. It will also have other goodies that we are not aware of until we see the finished product.
Personally I'm loving all the removal of the anti-climatic portions of the game and this is one of them. Having that frost giant power attack and crit slicing the PC in half after he had played him for 6 months was just no fun.
Unfortunately all some people can think of is that holy grail of max damage that they might do with their scythe while power attacking etc. etc. They spend a lot of time and effort into choosing the right feats, making sure everything is perfect etc. etc. then for months they see it in action hacking and slashing away until one day the power attacking monster beats them to the punch and kills them with a crit...oh how much damage...really! well I'm dead (fun?). Oh and so what the PC did it for months who cares! As DM I have another monster around the corner ready to end his life by getting his uber crit off - it is only a matter of time. It sucked for the game - your choice is to off the PC or fudge the roll/damage done. We hate fudge so all rolls are in the open. Anything that reduces the chance of anti-climatic deaths due to lucky roll is fine by me - and I see scaling back crits as a step that is positive.
I've been playing for...um let me go look at a book...Advanced D&D whatever version that was (about 27/28 years now..wow that book brings back some memories). We have always upgraded, learned the new rules, and enjoyed the game as much or more than the previous edition. Perhaps it is our group - we look forward to and embrace change. I like everything I'm reading about the new edition so far...keep up the good work and bring on the new game so you can get started on the next version of improvements. I want to be able to tell my grandchildren in years to come that I played through 10+ versions of the game (really grandpa what was it called?) - oh and here you go for a laugh take a look at how 4E worked. But man believe me when I tell you for its time.......it ROCKED. Because you know what 27 years ago the game rocked but I can't see going back to that edition not after having played 3.5!
TT
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 1:46AM
#55
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Since this isn't WoW, and I'm not on my Hunter anymore, I never really focus on a crit-build anyway, so this may work out fine for my style. One roll, easy results, no more "Ok this stuff gets multiplied, but this stuff doesn't" calcs.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 1:46AM
#56
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The new system will be "super awesome!" for people who aren't crit-focused (hint: a lot of people aren't) while, apparently, gutting the "fun of being a crit-build."
I would like to note that the random element isn't entirely gone, it's just toned down. People seem to be overlooking the "+n adds d6's" thing. The Magic Item preview listed +2 weapons as being level 9. +1 weapons are likely Level 4, so the only time where a critical's damage output is "just max weapon damage" is the time between the start of the game and the characters getting their first round of +1's.
Realistically max damage already reflects the average expectation of a critical strike on a x2 mod for the average character. A character swinging a 1d6 weapon can generally assume a 6 or an 8 on a critical, but stands to either lose big with a 2, or score big with a 12. Thinking to my game table, for 6 of the 7 people at the table Critical Hits are a bonus, not a means. For them "max damage" will = "Sweet!" because their critical range isn't a salient mechanic they consciously evaluate.
This doesn't actually surprise me at all. I read through the Designing the Delve articles a few days ago and they talk about simplifying the math of high level damage for the sanity of DMs who are running a level 20 encounter from a clipboard. Instead of the Gargantuan Black Dragon dealing 24d4 damage with his breath attack he deals 8d4 + 40. Average output of a d4 is 2.5, so that's 16d4 rolling dead average to get 40, then roll the last 8 for some variability. Instead of a potential damage range of 24-96 it's 48-96. Max + some d6's is basically slightly below average, times two, plus a bit of variable. That d6 weapon that's doing a guaranteed 6 instead of the mathematical average 7 gets its due when it's a +1 and does 6+3.5=9.5 instead of (3.5+1)x2=9.
Lastly, this puts more science into encounter building. You can look at a monster and right away know whether or not it has the capacity to one-shot your PCs. If you *know* that the monster can't get lucky and crit-oops-dead kill the Wizard in the surprise round then you can be a lot more confident at pushing a little harder on the softies.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 3:07AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2007
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Generally I like this move. The thing that will make crits fun is when you get them using your powers. The attacks damage is maxed so if your paladin is doing a smite for double weapon damage+Cha, you crit and it turns into a huge shot (potentially). The powers you use in a round are going to be the most important thing.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 3:16AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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given that its already been said that spell attacks will have attack rolls and i believe crits, this rule should be quite nice for combat spellcasters - a fireball type spell doing max damage 5% of the time = Yay.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 3:30AM
#59
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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Yay for the snowball fallacy.[/quote]
Sense when is examining direct repercussions of argument fallacious method of testing its validity? I guess it is easer to imagine nonexistent fallacies then produce actual counterargument.
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5 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2008 - 3:58AM
#60
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I like the idea of how they are changing crits, for many reasons.
[LIST=1] It raises crit chance for characters who don't have accuracy.
Reduces the ability to make overpowered crit builds.
Maximized damage gets rid of (or at least nerfs) the extremely powerful area effects of SWSE.
I like the fact that there is no confirm anymore, because it's irritating to have such little value in natch 20s when you have low accuracy. With this new setup of maximized damage, there are new ways to toy with it that really weren't possible before. Maximized sneak attack, folks.
Not to mention that there might be feats and talents that add crit dice, which are far less powerful than adding crit range or multiplier, but still very effective. They may even have other effects (critting with a spell might have a secondary effect... ice spells could slow a player, force spells could do knockback). Plus, it could have beneficial effects too (crit on a touch attack to heal you... maximized cure!). Or other funny abilities for those with no magic (crit as a thief and declare no damage, I stealz your weapon!). I think it's neat.
As for proficiency, I think it's either of two things: a simplification of the old proficiency system, wherein which 1 means simple, 2 means martial, and 3 means exotic (and having the proficiency 3 times might mean you can use all exotics), or it's a system where you get so many points for your class and decide which weapons you want to be proficient in. The second makes more sense, because it means that any character can use anything, if they try hard enough.
The one I'm wondering about is "versatile". I like the idea of weapon abilities, because it means that a weapon is more than just three numbers strapped to a size and proficiency. Maybe they'll even have rules later for how to design your own. That would be great.
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