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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A New Article: It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like...
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Switch to Forum Live View New Article: It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Crit-Mas
5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 2:25PM #1
Wizardmon
Date Joined: Dec 15, 2006
Posts: 1,938
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080104

Thought's anyone?

I, for one, love it! I am implementing ASAP at my gametable.
Let your voice be heard! Tell WotC to Publish D&D 4e under the OGL!
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:05PM #2
PHGraves
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 32
I would hold off on doing that just yet. If you do, you may wish to let those who have chosen now-useless items/feats (Improved Critical; Keen weapons; etc) to respec.

While I do not have an issue with toning down critical hits, 4E is looking more and more like they are adding a skill system to a tactical miniatures game.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:08PM #3
UngeheuerLich
Date Joined: Oct 1, 2007
Posts: 348
Maximized dice sounds quite good, so you know a crit can´t kill if a normal attack couldn´t (from a DM´s point of view)

What I would I rather have seen than high crit (+1d6) would be stunning crit or dazing crits etc...

What I also recognized was that weapons are categorized. This allows a better customization of fighters.

The last thing which still concerns me is too high hp at first level (imbalance between heroes and commoners)

From what is given I expect wizards to have about 15 - 20 hp at first Level. I would expect a commoner to have about 10 hp then and fighting type heroes about 30 hp (this could very well be tripple hp at first Level)

But given that, there have to be rules to drop a Level 1 person with one hit (not in combat situation) or things get strange:

1. level wizard on the fair:
*casts prestidigitation*
"I am immortal"
*rams a dagger in his heart* ---> automatical crit: 4 damage
"see"
*uses second wind, walks home*

edit: in 3.x i would consider it a coup de grace, resulting in 2d4 damage + fort save (which will have good chance to kill him...)

While I do not have an issue with toning down critical hits, 4E is looking more and more like they are adding a skill system to a tactical miniatures game.[\quote]

from what i read that was the origin of D&D... I am still on the side: 3.x is a good game, but there are things which looked great at first glance, but are not really funny at all (especially if yo are DM)

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:18PM #4
Tinkerer
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 104
Improved Critical and Keen are not necessarily gone. As those would be special rules on top of the base, crit on a 20.

Better crit multipliers would reflect into high crit property.

Not sure if something like rapier would switch from having the greater threat range to high crit property to make it worthwhile or not. Be nice if we could get a handful of sample weapons to speculate over.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:21PM #5
Tinkerer
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 104
I am completely unable to get the "quote" feature to work correctly.

Anyway...

As for the concept of stunning crits and such I'm guessing those are in the new rules. Likely a mix of powers (perhaps easier with certain types of weapons such as hammers if one is a fighter) to magical properties of weapons or extra mojo/side effect mojo on spells.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:24PM #6
duke_Qa
Date Joined: May 6, 2005
Posts: 287
interesting. seems a bit boring not to have any crit range, but that would be epic when you don't need to confirm.
I don't see any good reasons why there won't be a rule/feat/class-ability that allows for increased crit ranges further up in the system, as it wouldn't make the math itself more advanced, it would be "woo, 19, crit!!" instead of "woo, 20, crit!!". though a 10% chance for crit might get old very quickly.

wouldn't surprise me at all if there are feat/class abilities that allows you to stun or fling enemies around on a crit, we know pretty much that a cleric heals people around him when he crits so there are probably plenty of stuff to be done there.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:25PM #7
Smerg
Date Joined: Aug 25, 2007
Posts: 836
With the increased hit points there is now the strange factor that a mage can likely shrug off such a blow even if it is a critical without blinking. d8 maximized is still only 8 points of damage and likely less then the predicted minium point for a wizard of 12.

Good points are that you do not have the fairly odd uber bonus specs that were designed around the almost automatic criticals with their multiplying. Multiplying really does put a wrench in the mechanics quickly.

I am curious though what the word 'versatile' means on the war pick next to the high critical? There is also a mark of Proficiency 2 which means?

Could this be a signal that WotC is returning to the 2e and earlier where a fighter did not know all weapons but had to choose which weapons to learn to use? If that is the case then does that 2 mean that it takes the equivelent of 2 choices to learn the weapon because it is marked as being versatile?

Wondering minds want to know.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:47PM #8
Horatio_Hornblower
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 120

While I do not have an issue with toning down critical hits, 4E is looking more and more like they are adding a skill system to a tactical miniatures game.


Reread the combat chapter in the PHB and look at the AoO examples. D&D is already a tactical miniatures game. Anyway, that's where it all started back in the 70s. The better the combat rules flow the less it will get in the way of roleplay. IMHO, 4e so far looks like a big improvement.

I like the new crit rules because it's simpler with reasonable damage. One thing not mentioned in the article is the big disappointment of getting double damage and then rolling 1. Max dice is better.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:48PM #9
M4kitsu
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 847
I like it. It makes my job easier behind the screen and reduces the frequency with which I'm going to need to fudge rolls to keep PCs alive (I have a Warmage who thinks he's a tank, so this happens a lot).

My players are going to have a completely different opinion of it: Longbow crit of 9 (8 +1 enh, no str) is a lot less impressive than 3d8+3 (avg 15), but they'll get used to the idea quickly enough.

The real meaty bits of this article have little to nothing to do with crits at all, however:

-Confimations are gone. I think Logan is right in that most people will welcome this. I know my players will.

-The article seems to support more of the "simplify the math" theme that we've seen running throughout 4e development so far, and simply being able to note down your crit damage on the sheet implies that other situational modifiers to your attacks are gone: things like power attack. I have mixed feelings about this, since I liked being able to adjust that probability round by round and opponent by opponent.

-It's good to see that procs (chance-on-hit abilities for all three of you that don't play MMOs) are still around, and I strongly suspect that triggering these is going to quickly become the real highlight of a critical hit, rather than maximising damage dice.

-The War Pick's weapon profile includes quite a bit of interesting information, as well:

--"Prof"
It appears that the Simple, Martial, Exotic distinction is gone as well, and has been replaced by a numeric system. A War Pick is a relatively easy weapon to use, although some amount of practice is required to get the point into the other guy, so I would guess that the system rates weapons from 1 (very simple; club, dagger) to 4 (stupidly hard; spiked chain, dire flail) and each weapon trainig feat taken increases your proficiency level by 1.

It it also possible that the proficiency level indicates the penalty applied to attack rolls with the weapon if you aren't proficient with it. Therefore, a Wizard (almost certainly a prof. level 1 character) who picks up this pick without prior training is going to take a -2 penalty on attacks with it, where he would be taking a -4 if he tried to do the same with a spiked chain.

--"Category"
This also seems to indicate the death of broader weapon categories in favor of tighter lines, possibly related to damage type or the maneuvers that can be used with given sorts of weapons (ie, a pick is very good at piercing armor or yanking their shield out of the way, where a staff is better at tangling up an opponents legs). This is probably going to be mostly relevant to Fighters, but with the "training" feats, it's possible that everyone couled pick up a trick or two with their weapon of choice.

--"Properties"
I suspect that other things we may see in this caregory are Reach, Double-weapon, and similar things. High Crit gets explained (and though it does not specify, heavily implies that the extra die is rolled rather than maximised). What "versatile" means is anyone's guess at this point, though once again, it could be related to damage types or the specific sorts of attacks/maneuvers that can be used with the weapon.



Overall, most interesting article in a while, and I hope they do more like this in the months leading up to the PHB. One of the dev team said (don't remember who or where, though... might've been Noonan) that they wanted to use these D&D articles to acclimate us to the precepts of 4e so that it felt like we already knew the rules when he opened the book for the first time. I like that idea, and I think it's a good move on their part if only they'd back up their words. This article is a good step in that direction.

So, Logan, if you read this: keep it up. For the DMs and players still out there who are unconvinced, this is exactly what we want to see.
-m4ki; one down, one to go

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Retro-fit is not new."

--Seeker95,
on why I won't be playing DDN


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4. DM vs. players. If the game encourages "gotcha!" moments or treats the DM and players as enemies, adversaries, or problems to be overcome, I walk.
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8. Don't get in the way of a good players exchange.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 04, 2008 - 3:56PM #10
Darth_Cyric
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 256
I love it.

Natural 20 only w/ no confirmation was expected, as that's the way it works in Star Wars Saga, and it works very well there.

Maximum damage as opposed to damage multipliers is also welcome, as it makes a critical hit even from a mediocre-STR character hurt, while keeping a rein on a min-maxed high STR build.

Too many times in 3.5, a character with a suboptimal STR (even a finesse Fighter) did weenie damage on a critical if his damage roll was too low. Conversely, a high-STR character would have enough modifiers that his base weapon damage die didn't matter, so all he had to worry about was damage multipliers or threat ranges. Thus making only a select few melee weapons (falchion, scimitar, rapier, scythe, pick) even worth looking at. Very unbalancing.

In 4e, we should see a lot more weapons being viable selections now, between this new critical hit system and the weapon-specific Fighter "powers" (maneuvers).
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