If you don't want a fighter to grab plate mail and a tower shield at level 1, don't give them to him.
And what happens at 2nd or 3rd lv? You can't deny him fullplate and a shield forever, or for long at any rate.
But the first fighter would have 18 strength instead of dex, which would give him +4 AR and damage.
And the fighter with just 13 dex won't necessarily just keep it at 13. He can later boost it via misc means. Restricting your argument to just 1st lv is very short-sighted, IMO, considering how the game will extend to lv30, and any decision will need to be made in the general context, rather than zooming in at just one specific point in your adventuring career.
Likewise, if fighter A had 18 str via say, point buy, he could have reduced it to 16 instead, freeing up 4-6 points, which could then be channeled into dex, raising it to 16 as well (assuming it was 13 to begin with).
Removing max dex on fullplate for a fighter with dex13 does not seem like a big deal, but when we change the scenario to a fighter with dex16 and gloves of dex+6 (for dex22), it is a whole different story now, isn't it?
Dexterity shouldn't be necessary for a fighter, but if they want to invest in it, it should give them benefits.
We never said that it should not benefit them (it already does in the form of better initiative, better reflex saves and a few other misc benefits). The key point is that it should not grant too many benefits, or at least, not without cost.
The pcs like the rogue and monk that benefit ac wise from dex because they dont wear heavy armour, wont be overpowered by removing the dex cap on heavy armour or medium armour, as there is a penalty to dex skills as a result of this.
The problem is not that rogues will be broken because of this. The crux is that classes wearing heavy armour will get an additional benefit because they can afford to slap on heavy armour and benefit from this added AC in addition to their high dex, but with none of the drawbacks, unlike rogues or monks (where the efficacy of their class features are specifically contingent on the type of armour they wear).
It's unfair for dex fighters to be left out in the cold unless they find the right PrC.
I guess the issue I see is that having everyone in full plate just isn't much fun. And if you took away max dex (and didn't replace it with some other limitation), then why wouldn't you want full plate? That's how it was in 1e... if you were a warrior you always wanted the best armor you could get, and that was it. I like the 3e system better.
You could replace the max dex system with some other limiting factor, but you'd have to decide whether that new system was better and/or less complicated than the current one.
And for your point #2, that the current system makes a high-dex fighter uncompetitive, you do miss a couple points: a) Dex does a lot more than just help your AC, b) lighter armor lets you move faster, c) a number of PrC/multiclass options require light armor only and d) it remains a pretty popular build. So while I see what your saying, I'm not sure it's really a problem in the bigger picture.
No one has any incentive to raise their Dex to avoid hits which is exactly the picture one has in their mind of a high dex.
Actually no, it's only one of many, many uses of a raised Dex.
AstralFireIX wrote:
Dex is already pretty nearly a god-stat. Removing Max Dex only gives Heavy Armor wearers one more stat they have to mind.
He is right.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer wrote:
Please read some of my reasons. and think of the system as a designer. Dex doesn't have to be a God Stat if you don't make it one. (it wasn't a God stat in 3rd).
Actually if there is a god-stat in 3.xe, then it's Dex!
Dex adds to AC, a save, initiative, touch AC, a LOT of skills. It also can be used for hit with only a feat.
Compare that to Jim's Str, it merely adds to hit, damage, max load and very few skills.
I couldn't agree more with the OP. As a matter of fact, I've already removed max dex from my game and everything has worked just fine. Armors already have check penalties and the max dex just penalizes armor wearers more. The fact is, it's a rule that's there just for some conceived rules balance that just isn't necessary. IMO, all the max dex, and sometimes even the check penalty, does is punish "defenders" for doing their jobs. Armor Proficiency should include training in the armor while doing class skills so that no, or only minor, penalties are used while doing those skills.
Fighter only gets 2 skill points per level and 7 class skills while 3 of those class skills are subject to armor check penalties. That really isn't fair. Attempting skills that are not in the class skill list (like Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, etc) should incur penalties. Heck, I don't even think armor, by itself, should reduce a character's speed. That should be based on total encumbrance.
And the fighter with just 13 dex won't necessarily just keep it at 13. He can later boost it via misc means. Restricting your argument to just 1st lv is very short-sighted, IMO, considering how the game will extend to lv30, and any decision will need to be made in the general context, rather than zooming in at just one specific point in your adventuring career.
Likewise, if fighter A had 18 str via say, point buy, he could have reduced it to 16 instead, freeing up 4-6 points, which could then be channeled into dex, raising it to 16 as well (assuming it was 13 to begin with).
Removing max dex on fullplate for a fighter with dex13 does not seem like a big deal, but when we change the scenario to a fighter with dex16 and gloves of dex+6 (for dex22), it is a whole different story now, isn't it?
The thing is that there is no incentive to raise your Dex for a better AC. Secondly, I hope items such as gloves of Dexterity are removed from 4th, but we'll see.
runestar wrote:
We never said that it should not benefit them (it already does in the form of better initiative, better reflex saves and a few other misc benefits). The key point is that it should not grant too many benefits, or at least, not without cost.
The problem is not that rogues will be broken because of this. The crux is that classes wearing heavy armour will get an additional benefit because they can afford to slap on heavy armour and benefit from this added AC in addition to their high dex, but with none of the drawbacks, unlike rogues or monks (where the efficacy of their class features are specifically contingent on the type of armour they wear).
I don't see how [high dex fighters] are left out.
Maybe I can clarify a few points of my argument. Yes, a higher dex gives you better initiative (reflex is being combined into AC for the next game). There's a certain point where it doesn't terribly matter what your initiative is, because you almost always or always go first.
In 2nd edition this wasn't even an issue, Dex stacked with armor, and it wasn't a deal at all. This is why I had suggestion #3 of reducing the bonuses from armor. Having a +4 armor stack with a +4 Dex is not a big deal compared to another person who has a +1 armor stack with a +4 Dex. This is also why I mentioned #4. It is highly likely that all classes will get a level bonus to their AC, making a player choose either their armor bonus or their level bonus works great since that 18 Dex you put on your character will still fully benefit you during your career.
And, allowing Fighters to grab a talent which allows them to keep half their armor bonus in addition works great. If full plate gave +8 AC normally, it would only give +4 AC with this talent. Consider Combine #3 and #4 and full plate would give +4 AC normally, and now +2 AC with this talent. Perhaps there would be no need to give half an armor bonus, and just leave it at +4. In either of these cases, there is still no need for a Max Dex.
Indeed High Dex fighters are very left out. The entire reason that you're a high dex fighter is so that you can hit and avoid being hit. Dex as it currently is does not help you dodge hits any better than a guy in armor. Initiative is nice, but doesn't save you from being slammed after you finish your turn.
This is acutely true of rogues and monks, they're far less defensible than fighters (who aren't that good at avoiding hits themselves). Their flavor is all about being dodgey and evasivey, but instead their AC sucks and they get hit every time. #4, class based defense bonuses solves all these problems.
On another note, #3 solves the fact that there are a plethora of useless armors. Having only 4 armors simplifies things and reduces uselessness.
(reflex is being combined into touch AC for the next game).
Fixed that for ya.
There's a certain point where it doesn't terribly matter what your initiative is, because you almost always or always go first.
Really? When is that? Unless you're always fighting golems and other Dex<10 creatures, Initiative depends heavily on the d20 (Improved Initiative notwithstanding).
Indeed High Dex fighters are very left out. The entire reason that you're a high dex fighter is so that you can hit and avoid being hit. Dex as it currently is does not help you dodge hits any better than a guy in armor. Initiative is nice, but doesn't save you from being slammed after you finish your turn.
And THAT is one of the reasons why Bracers of Armor are so very much popular. :D
Actually, I don't think that giving Dex fighters another use for Dex is really that necessary, or we'd start seeing Dex fighters as the rule rather than an option. As you said, Dex fighters have the same AC, and same Attack as a Str fighter, but deal less damage. BUT, they're also more difficult to touch, have higher Reflex, move faster and can swap their weapon for a longbow if need be and still be effective. Just try and hit that flying dragon with your Str-based character and see the difference.
This is acutely true of rogues and monks, they're far less defensible than fighters (who aren't that good at avoiding hits themselves). Their flavor is all about being dodgey and evasivey, but instead their AC sucks and they get hit every time. #4, class based defense bonuses solves all these problems.
Now, with class bonus to AC I wholeheartedly agree. But I don't think that one automatically makes the other unnecessary. You can give fighters (and rogues and monks etc.) some extra AC based on level, but you don't need to ditch Max Dex just because. Heck, we don't even know what is the mechanic they're using, the only thing I read about was that a playtest wererat or something "was able to hit the Fighters (very high) AC". So we can imply that Fighters (and Defenders, I guess) are able to get their defenses very high, but that doesn't make them immune to monsters.
On another note, #3 solves the fact that there are a plethora of useless armors. Having only 4 armors simplifies things and reduces uselessness.
Well, that would work better if the designers of 3rd edition didn't think it was a good idea to make only two armors have a total of +9 AC, three others +8, and the rest +7. And then they overpriced the good armors (except padded armor, the IMHO best armor you can have), so that you eventually buy a Chainmail for your 1st level fighter, and switch to full plate when you got the cash.
I actually like dexterity maximum inclusions and feel that armour protection as a damage reduction should be a part of the game. Armor protection as damage reduction has been shown to work in several games so far.
In most reasonable interpetation of existing campaign worlds, it takes a long time for dexterity to improve past normal bounds of armour, so much so that studded leather armour is the armour of choice for those focusing on high armour class in mid-power games. In games that throw sensibility to the winds, no armour whatsoever is optive, is best as long as the monk class and enchanted trousers +5 are available.
Personally, I adore low magic campaigns but am not adverse to mid-range magic campaigns.
Really? When is that? Unless you're always fighting golems and other Dex<10 creatures, Initiative depends heavily on the d20 (Improved Initiative notwithstanding).
Yes, initiative is nice, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that it is not the most important aspect of Dexterity, AC is. Once initiative is rolled and you're done going first, the benefit of that number is lost (yes I realize that you'd go first again and get 2 hits to your opponents 1).
bobthedog wrote:
And THAT is one of the reasons why Bracers of Armor are so very much popular. :D
Actually, I don't think that giving Dex fighters another use for Dex is really that necessary, or we'd start seeing Dex fighters as the rule rather than an option. As you said, Dex fighters have the same AC, and same Attack as a Str fighter, but deal less damage. BUT, they're also more difficult to touch, have higher Reflex, move faster and can swap their weapon for a longbow if need be and still be effective. Just try and hit that flying dragon with your Str-based character and see the difference.
Bracers of Armor are a silly item, cost too much, and every wizard, monk, rogue ends up with one as a no-brainer. No-brainer items are bad. It's also item dependency which is bad.
We'll see about Dex fighters being the rule, if dex ends up more optimal then it ends up more optimal. Touch means next to nothing. It is not hard at all to increase a Wizard's attack bonus and touch.
I would not say that you move faster. I would say that you move normally and the heavy armor slows you down. Of course the fact that heavy armor slows you down only encourages new special items and feasts which mitigate this and in fact the designers have tried to take away that aspect through special materials, etc.
Yes, they can hit a creature with a longbow easier. Of course, the other fighter put his stat into strength and does more damage :D
I can see that there are some reasons for Max Dex. But, I don't see how they *improve* the game. Much like favored classes, I don't see it adding to the game. Perhaps to some people it doesn't take away.
Bracers of Armor are a silly item, agreed, and I see them going away or being highly limited in 4E. Their existence doesn't make Max Dex removal good.
Dex Fighters work moderately well. The reason they're not the best thing ever right now is because the core Fighter does it poorly (use the Swashbuckler or a third party class as the basis) and because 3.5 made Power Attack overpowered. (You don't fix Fighters being boring by giving them near certain death if they can pull off a full attack...)
Dex is the most important single attribute: 1) Every class wants a Dex of at least 10. Many classes can ignore Str, Int, Wis, and Cha, and there are a few where Con doesn't hurt too bad to not bother with. 2) Dex improves your Armor Class (and touch), Reflex Saves, initiative rolls, and about half of the most important skills in the game.
Compare to Int: - My class skills suck. Why bother. - I don't cast with this stat.
Strength: - I don't hit things. - Burden is seriously too much paperwork and a lot of people don't bother. - With a feat I can use Dex instead.
Constitution: - HP and Fort Saves. The only thing that can compete with Dex.
Charisma: - I don't have any Cha-based skills or I dump so many points into them it doesn't matter. - I don't cast with Charisma.
As of right now, the max dex resticts your mundane AC to somewhere from 7-9. It's a simple system. If you rely primarily on armor or dex, you get full plate or padded armor and you are at a fairly safe +9 AC. If you like a mix of the two, most armors will get you to about +8 AC. All the other armors are for people who care more about cost than safety, and get you to about +7 with the inclusion of a good Dex. That means if you're cheap, you can get an AC of 17; wanna mix a bit of both, you can get an AC of 18; want to completely rely on one or the other, get an AC of 19. Your mundane AC is capped at an average of 18. Unless they use magical means, 19 is the absolute cap to their Armor Bonus.
First off, this means that your targets can be hit in the first place. Everyone gets tired of the game when the only way to tag the thief is with a natural 20, because he's wearing full plate. The thief already has plenty of options for avoiding danger, so why punish the fighter by telling him "Sorry, we've decided he should be harder to hit than you are." Fighters don't have an option for stealth, don't have the option for tumble moving around the battlefield. They have to rely on their full plate, which if everyone wore (because there are no Dex limitations) means the fighter is dead last for purposes of being hit (short of the wizard, perhaps). He has a load of hit points, but that doesn't mean much when you have to stand on the front lines defending the rest of the group, and you're probably getting the full brunt of the beating.
The current system is self-balancing, and prevents the comical illusion of full-plate fencers and thieves running around. It makes Dex's purposes slightly reduced, as they are already worth so much to the game. Besides, as stated before, thieves have other options for avoiding damage (stealth) that fighters don't, so why worry about their AC this much in a self-balancing system? They aren't punishing dex fighters, but rewarding str fighters, whose primary stat is only good for hitting stuff, moving stuff, and climbing stuff.
Ironically, this reminds me of another message board conversation about adding a feat which allows Dex to decide bonus damage for finesse weapons. Made me laugh, because all they needed was to talk about a feat that made Dex decide bonus hit points, and they officially admitted they just want to make one-stat characters.
and think of the system as a designer. Dex doesn't have to be a God Stat if you don't make it one. (it wasn't a God stat in 3rd).
