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Hugin wrote:

I'm not sure what the beef is about MDB. At worst it only makes it so you're as nimble as the average human. That's not really that bad is it? People seem to state how easy it is to do things in armour, but I say the rules reflect that accurately already.

My point exactly. Everyone else claims that MDB is too restricting or that it hurts the game. My point is that it's balancing, simulates something that is moderately realistic, and is simple enough to not get in the way of gameplay. Meaning it's perfect for both 3rd and 4th edition.

It makes armor less feasible at high levels to characters who invest in Dexterity.

What makes you think that wasn't the designers' intention to start with? I think the idea is that rogues with 30dex should not be running around in fullplates. In the very least, they should not be too advantaged compared to a melee fighter who has to sacrifice dex to concentrate on str.

Compare a rogue with str12 and dex32 vs a fighter with str32 and dex13. That is a 10 point AC difference, which your revised armour system cannot address, because there is still an 8-point AC disparity.

Your comparison is not exactly incorrect, but it seems like you are approaching it from a completely wrong angle.

With these sensible armor bonuses, theres just no need for complex penalties.

I don't see what is so complex about them in the first place.

Nor do I find them sensible, for the very reason stated above, in that you are screwing over classes who cannot afford to pump dex in favour of classes who have every reason to concentrate in dex almost exclusively.

Imagine what would happen to MAD classes like the paladin!

Also, its unrealistic that a weakling in fullplate armor has vastly superior combat defense (AC +8) compared to a person with nearly superhuman agility (Dex AC +4). Fullplate is obsolete today BECAUSE its not that great.

Then humour me and assume that this is some wondrous fullplate in a fantasy world where its craftsmanship really is that great.

For example, a Dodge feat sucks when it grants a +1 bonus.

Dodge stinks anyways however you look at it, even without armour. Its purpose is simply to serve as a throwaway prereq feat to balance out more useful feats like spring attack and whirlwind. Nerfing armour to make 1 craptacular feat slightly less crap seems to be totally counterintuitive, in that you seem to be losing so much more than you gain.:P

AC +4 for heavy armor is fine. More than enough.
AC +3 for medium is fine.
AC +2 for light is reasonable.
AC +1 for heavy clothing or padded armor is tolerable. (Note that a masterwork padded clothing would grant +2, which is realistic. For example, heavy furs can effectively deflect slashing weapons and obsorb bludgeoning weapons.)

When you say terms like "More than enough/reasonable/fine/tolerable etc", what are you comparing them to?

Haldrik wrote:

Also, its unrealistic that a weakling in fullplate armor has vastly superior combat defense (AC +8) compared to a person with nearly superhuman agility (Dex AC +4).

You're forgetting that he ability to wear heavy armour effectively does not come free. You can only get it by choosing one of three classes or by spending one or more feats. So it comes only by class feature or sacrifice.

Decivre wrote:

...

This isn't a system which is balanced, it's a system that's overbalanced (in this case, toward dexers).

I have no problem with dexers, but I would have a problem if they outshine everyone else.

I couldn't agree more, and I’ll pretend you’re talking about the actual rules. I think the major problem there is the heavy weight that Dex has in the core game mechanics. Ranged Attacks, Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Initiative, lots of Skills, AC in this case. More specifically .. I want to mention Initiative. I know this is somewhat “aside” from the primary conversation, but I this thread brought the idea to mind.

I do not consider someone's capacity to pull off a standing back flip, not fall over, or etc other dexterous things to be a salient factor in "the awareness" of timing. I have been pondering which score (Int, Wis, or Cha) is the more appropriate bonus to apply to Initiative … but am not completely certain yet which is more pertinent. On one hand I want to say Cha (perform) and on the other I want to say Wis (the sensory score). I also wonder if it would be a viable choice to compile all the mental stat modifiers and apply all three as the Initiative bonus. (perhaps, Wis be default, and the ability to take improved initiative twice to compile the scores? Cha by default? Int? ) It should most certainly be a mental score - not a physical score.

I think I’ll go ahead and start a thread specifically regarding the topic, but for you guys I wanted to say that,

• I think the ACP should be applied as a Score modifier instead of the oddly constructed “MDB.”
  
• I think “Armor” should be used with the DR option (outright negatively effecting AC).
  
• The “Max Dex Bonus” deal should be removed (replaced by a score penalty equal to the ACP).
  
• Keep the ACP applied directly to skill checks and as a penalty to the score as well.
  
• There should be a “Min Str Mod” to address the issue of Maneuverability.
  
• Wearing armor should cause non-lethal damage like an environmental hazard (hourly).
  
• This conversation is another case example of how “Dex does too much”
  

Neodymium wrote:

Damnit! I have to dip into fighter and get EVEN MORE FEATS with my heavy armor proficiency.

i'm not seeing much sacrifice here. unless you're super scared of losing a caster level.

Not everyone wants to multiclass. Always remember that.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

I couldn't agree more, and I’ll pretend you’re talking about the actual rules. I think the major problem there is the heavy weight that Dex has in the core game mechanics. Ranged Attacks, Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Initiative, lots of Skills, AC in this case. More specifically .. I want to mention Initiative. I know this is somewhat “aside” from the primary conversation, but I this thread brought the idea to mind.

No. This thread was posted by Bisco as a statement that Dex doesn't do enough. He wanted to remove the Maximum Dex Bonus to alleviate what he saw as a problem. Can't say I blame him if he doesn't like the rule, I've been talking about getting rid of prestige classes for prestige talent trees on a different thread.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

I do not consider someone's capacity to pull off a standing back flip, not fall over, or etc other dexterous things to be a salient factor in "the awareness" of timing. I have been pondering which score (Int, Wis, or Cha) is the more appropriate bonus to apply to Initiative … but am not completely certain yet which is more pertinent. On one hand I want to say Cha (perform) and on the other I want to say Wis (the sensory score). I also wonder if it would be a viable choice to compile all the mental stat modifiers and apply all three as the Initiative bonus. (perhaps, Wis be default, and the ability to take improved initiative twice to compile the scores? Cha by default? Int? ) It should most certainly be a mental score - not a physical score.

The problem is that while I can't say I disagree, the ability to do things first is probably more fit as a combination of physical (obviously Dex) and mental (either INT or WIS, can't figure which) ability. It would certainly make more sense. Low Dex and high mental would mean your body wouldn't react as fast as your mind, and vice versa.

But I don't think a two-statted skill is on the mind of the developers (initiative, as far as is known, is becoming a skill now). It'll probably stay the same, and there will be feats to make it otherwise.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

I think the ACP should be applied as a Score modifier instead of the oddly constructed “MDB.”

I think this has been addressed previously. If MDB penalizes your AC, you would have fighters only getting 2 AC out of fullplate, and having a touch AC of 5. This makes them far too vulnerable to magic, and damn easy to hit. Unless you're giving them 100 hit points per die, I don't think this'll pan out too well.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

I think “Armor” should be used with the DR option (outright negatively effecting AC).

Also previously addressed. DR is far too powerful as an item-granted effect. Even in the case of an adamantine-granted DR of 3, it seems unbalancing. It'll neutralize small accurate hits, and do very little to inaccurate powerful hits. Of course with an AC of 13, those powerful hits will hit more often than you'll possibly imagine.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

The “Max Dex Bonus” deal should be removed (replaced by a score penalty equal to the ACP).

AC 13, Touch 5, Flat-footed 5 would be a nightmare.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

Keep the ACP applied directly to skill checks and as a penalty to the score as well.

That's already how it is (excluding the last bit).

AnonymouseRex wrote:

There should be a “Min Str Mod” to address the issue of Maneuverability.

Now while I agree with you that there needs to be balance between the stats, demanding that characters require stats is also a problem. Having low stats is already a penalty in itself, so we shouldn't penalize the player twice for making a bad choice/roll. It's one thing for composite bows, but for all armor to have the same thing?

AnonymouseRex wrote:

Wearing armor should cause non-lethal damage like an environmental hazard (hourly).

Fatigue is already in the game, but very few people actually use it. Then there's the fact that overland travel becomes a *****. Add this to the fact that at high heat levels, there is nonlethal damage, and I think we're set.

AnonymouseRex wrote:

This conversation is another case example of how “Dex does too much”

Again, I think the original point of this post is that Dex doesn't do enough when Max Dex Bonus exists. You're right in that it is far more powerful than other stats (along with strength). The problem is that while D&D isn't necessarily rooted in realism, it does become a problem when you use the absolutely nonsensical to balance the game out. Unfortunately, most skills are tied to the attribute that most closely resembles them, and Dex does make sense to affect the things it does. The only way we can balance it is to move things around in such a way that this sensibility goes away, which as much as I love balance, would be a problem.

Of course, if I see a reasonable idea I'll change my mind. :D