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5 years ago ::
Dec 26, 2007 - 5:53AM
#171
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Let's see. 28 point buy, my standard. If you actually split the points evenly (silly, but whatever), that's 4.6 points per stat. Let's call it 5,5,5,5,4,4, or 4 13s and 2 12s.
Salla, how is this responsive to what I wrote? (I assume you meant it to be because you quoted me before writing this.)
I was responding to waternut, who was complaining that Point Buy didn't let him have high stats in every Ability. He prefers rolling whihch gives him that opportunity, so he claimed.
I merely pointed out that the key to getting high stats i every Ability means either 1) a DM who uses randomization that is very generous, or 2) a DM who grants a very generous Point Buy. In other words, a generous DM is the key, not the ability generation method.
In the conversation with waternut, "extraordinary" did not mean in comparison with a commoner. "Extraordinary" meant in comparison to the stats one could expect with a standard Point Buy.
You then replied to me with an analysis of the mean abilty under a 28 point buy. I really have no idea how that is responsive to what I wrote. Could you clarify?
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5 years ago ::
Dec 26, 2007 - 2:24PM
#172
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Point Buy puts everyone in the middle...and that's balanced...and kinda lame.
No its not fun to have under powered character stats all around or to be in a party where someone can do your job better than you can simply because they rolled better stats and yes point buy eliminates these problems. But at least with current point buy systems I have seen, you will never see characters with stats like 3 or 4 or even 6. 8 will be the lowest. And likewise, if you see a character with an 18...he will also just so happen to be fairly average and bland at everything else.
I like for characters to be balanced in a party and for each character to feel effective, but I like the challenge that random stats bring to the table. Every character should be suited for their class and role. But not every character should be PERFECTLY suited.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 26, 2007 - 2:45PM
#173
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Heres a 28-point-buy stat calculator for DDO. You have to select race and class to activate the point buy.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 26, 2007 - 8:16PM
#174
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IMO, rolling for ability scores is so broken that there's just no fixing it. Sure, you can add on qualifiers from "4d6 keep 3" and "2d6+6", from "draw a circle on the table in blue chalk and smear tuna juice on the dice while chanting Led Zepplin lyrics", but you're just tacking band aids onto a pile of junk. Sorry, but randomly determining something so fundamental and pervasive just doesn't work. If one failed save killing a 17th level character is a problem, then surely this is too.
I decide what I want my character to be. I decide where to put those strengths and weaknesses. Not the dice.
Characters are built. Combats are rolled.
The last time I rolled stats, I wound up with a 4 that I just could not put anywhere. I finally settled on Charisma, even though it made no sense for my character concept. I've been hosed harder before, and I've seen players who had great character concepts in similar predicaments.
The first time I ever played, the DM told me that I had to leave the stats in the order that I'd rolled them, and the only option that left was Thief. Yeah, that's a great way to start a new player.
It's not that I've always been hosed, either. I once rolled unbelievable stats, and might have decided to play a MAD class, but I was already set on Gnome Wizard. My stats didn't quite make sense for that character. While I didn't max out my advantage, it was still there, and noticable.
Nor is my antipathy based solely on antecdotes. Other posters have listed several reasons why point buy is far more balanced, and almost all of the counter arguments have appealed either to nostalgia or a simple love of randomness for its own sake.
I'll try not to rehash those other posts too much, but I do think a few points are worth repeating or clarifying:
-You aren't required to use point buy, unless the DM says so, and some might allow the players to choose either.
-We don't know that the point buy system will be the same. Maybe it won't be, though I do think some method of weighting higher scores is needed.
-Sliding from 25 points to 36 points, and anywhere between (in my experience 28 or 30 seems best) is alot easier than coming up with some way for the dice to adjust to different power levels.
-With point buy, characters can be built at home and verified at the table, saving game time.
-While some players might make cookie cutter statlines for a "one stat", or "two stat", or "MAD" class, it's not that simple. There are always subtle differences between characters and campaigns, as well as class builds, even if the CharOp boards do come to a consensus as to what the best statline is for a Wizard, let alone a Fighter, where different stats help different weapon maneuvers.
Besides, they're trying to balance the stats out a little more. There might be Wizard builds that need Dex while others need Charisma more.
I'm glad, and I do hope that rolling HP goes out too, for much the same reasons. Keep the dice in-session.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 26, 2007 - 9:46PM
#175
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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You mean, you would allow a adventuring commoner. I mean just having one stat at a ten doesn't make a character heroic. I mean if you are focusing on roleplaying you are in the wrong system. But if you want your characters to be Heroic, the stats
Str 10 Con 8 Dex 8 Int 4 Wis 4 Cha 6
do not make a good fighter but would be a PC in your games and the player wouldn't get a reroll. I personally don't think a character is Heroic unless he atleast has a total +8 or greater from totaling all the characters stat mods.
I feel sorry for any one who plays with you and am glad I don't.
There's no reason to feel sorry for them. As he said all of his players enjoy the games as do mine. A non-heroic character can be a lot of fun to play. I know a lot of people who play D&D want to be great. They want their characters to succeed and gain treasures and wealth. However, as good a way of playing as that is, it is not the end all say all of the game. A player and a DM can make an interesting story using "bad" characters.
I had a group that all rolled bad stats not too long ago. The characters ended up being a sickly fighter, a wizard that was always on the edge of death, an extreamly weak and dumb cleric with only average wisdom, and an intelligent but clumsy rogue begger character. It was a terrific group and the game went wonderfully. The wizard di end up dieing pretty quickly, but that was ok.
Now there's also the possiblity that some players will roll high and some will roll low. This can be a problem or it can not be a problem depending on the group. When this happens my group usually looks like a game of LotR with Gandalf and Aragorn doing a lot of action, but Frodo and Sam doing very important things in the game as well.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 27, 2007 - 9:42AM
#176
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Point Buy puts everyone in the middle...and that's balanced...and kinda lame.
No its not fun to have under powered character stats all around or to be in a party where someone can do your job better than you can simply because they rolled better stats and yes point buy eliminates these problems. But at least with current point buy systems I have seen, you will never see characters with stats like 3 or 4 or even 6. 8 will be the lowest. And likewise, if you see a character with an 18...he will also just so happen to be fairly average and bland at everything else.
I like for characters to be balanced in a party and for each character to feel effective, but I like the challenge that random stats bring to the table. Every character should be suited for their class and role. But not every character should be PERFECTLY suited.
Try out arrays if you don't like how people custom-build their character. They force players to put some points into every attribute, and mean that they won't really suck at more than 1 or 2 stats. Granted, they mean your stats are meh (15 14 13 12 10 8 is a standard array), but stats only define your character so far.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 27, 2007 - 10:11AM
#177
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Could you clarify?
I was saying that a character with stats above the norm is already extraordinary, and does not require a generous DM. 
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 27, 2007 - 10:50AM
#178
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2005
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My heart is made glad.
Though I cannot claim the same for my all of my gaming group.
Truthfully, this does 'balance' things much more than the older system. Randomly rolled stats were the defining concept behind 'winning' and 'loosing' charcters in a lot of games, so much that it got to the point a few times where it was "just keep rolling till you got a block you like, just don't be too demanding of it." This thankfully worked with my group...usually. When point buy was brought up (either from DMG or PHB 2, I don't remember) they didn't care for it because it created 'subpar' characters. This meaning they couldn't have an 18 everytime unless they really wanted to take a hit elsewhere.
Though it may cause problems for a while in some groups, I for one am glad that they made the point buy system the standard.
I am totally agreed here. But with that in mind, why not also have point-buy for NPC monsters, etc?
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5 years ago ::
Dec 27, 2007 - 11:00AM
#179
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I was saying that a character with stats above the norm is already extraordinary, and does not require a generous DM.
Could you explain how that is responsive ot what I wrote? Waternut was using a definition of "extraordinary" that meant "better than standard point buy of 4d6 drop lowest". I was respnding to him accepting his definition.
Your response seems to ignore waternut's definition, thus rendering it a non sequitur. So could you clarify how your post was responsive to the one you quoted (mine) because I'm still confused?
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5 years ago ::
Dec 27, 2007 - 11:30AM
#180
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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Disclaimer: I hate playing the same character over and over and never do it myself.
So wait. Why is this a bad habit? Because you don't like it? What if that's how that person has fun and doesn't really enjoy playing other types of characters? You'll force it on them because you think it's somehow objectively better merely because it meshes with your personal taste?
There are a couple of reasons this is a bad habit. First, it limits everybody else in the group. If you have four players and Joe always plays an elvish wizard, nobody else can have a wizard and get a balanced party. Second, it limits the game universes. If Joe always plays a Warforged then you have to create a game universe where that is possible. Third, a lot of the people that play the same characters over and over play annoying ones. Joe is always the CN halfling rogue who steals from the party and gets the party in trouble, or the barbarian who charges straight at monsters and expects the rest of the party to organize to back him up. Fourth, it get repetitive. Even if Joe is a good Elvish ranger who hunts orcs, it is liable to get boring to the rest of the party and the DM eventually.
Put simply, have favorite class, races, and character concepts is fine. Being totally inflexible about it is annoying.
Jay
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