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Tumble: just by itself might be weaker in 4th ed because there are no AOOs for moving anymore, so it should be okay to fold Balance and Escape Artist into it.

Sense Motive: I like that skill and I would prefer if it stays. There could be some talents based on it, such as countering Enchantment spells and Illusions.

Sleight of Hand: Another skill I'd like to keep. It should cover all kinds of mundane magic tricks. There could also be a talent for spellcasters based on it, which is used to hide somatic spell components. Another talent for rogues should allow to draw a weapon with it and sneak attack (like the old Flick of the Wrist feat)

Appraise: This should be a more general skill called Trade which allows you to get a better price for stuff. Also, you should be able to guess the effects of magic items with it, like Identify.

Concentration: Should stay. There should be a way to regain power (spells, maneuvers, psi points) by meditating and making a Concentration check.

Jump: Remove. The distance you can jump should depend on a Tumble check and your Str bonus. The formula for that should be as easy as possible.

I keep hearing people say that 4th ed should combine listen and spot, but from a character point of view it's completely stupid.

The 2 skills are used for completely different things. Listen is used for those things that you cannot see, like trying to discover what is behind a door without opening it, or hearing an army march on the other side of a hill before you see them come over.

Spot on the other hand is used for seeing those things that are in the corner of your eye, catching the movement of a hidden foe, noticing in the heat of battle that the opponent you are fighting has the holy symbol of your god etc.

Having these two skills separate adds depth to characters, makes the game more interesting and helps keep the group together as a team.

Also if these are combined, how would a character who isn't very observant of their surroundings but who had great hearing be constructed in the system? Would the player have to give himself a penalty to some uses of their 'perception' skill?

The other suggestions that have been given so far I'm all for, but that one I just think would be a terrible idea.

Tecrogue wrote:

I keep hearing people say that 4th ed should combine listen and spot, but from a character point of view it's completely stupid.

The 2 skills are used for completely different things. Listen is used for those things that you cannot see, like trying to discover what is behind a door without opening it, or hearing an army march on the other side of a hill before you see them come over.

Spot on the other hand is used for seeing those things that are in the corner of your eye, catching the movement of a hidden foe, noticing in the heat of battle that the opponent you are fighting has the holy symbol of your god etc.

Having these two skills separate adds depth to characters, makes the game more interesting and helps keep the group together as a team.

Also if these are combined, how would a character who isn't very observant of their surroundings but who had great hearing be constructed in the system? Would the player have to give himself a penalty to some uses of their 'perception' skill?

The other suggestions that have been given so far I'm all for, but that one I just think would be a terrible idea.

Well, it's simple really. If you think about it from an abstract perspective. 3.e seperates Hide and MS, so you then need two seperate means of detection. Even still as you said you might be good at one and not the other, it doesn't matter as you will roll to spot the hidden threat and if the fails roll to hear the threat. Which ever one is you optimum is the one most likely to detect making the other irrelevant in most situations. Especially since those that focus on stealth usually have equal values to Hide and MS.

The 3.e therefore almost always needs two opposed rolls to detect the hidden threat. Now if you roll Hide/MS into stealth (which is the goal, to avoid detection) what difference does having specific Spot/Listen skills make? Not much really, except from an RP perspective. Having Perception is optimal as most of perception is noticing details in the background, not actual eyesight or hearing, of which Listen/Spot do not represent contrary to Skill Point proponents. They represent exactly what Perception does but breaks it down into a tedious format.

If you what a character that has problems hearing, or seeing, then use the backgrounds format out UA, and apply it as modifiers to specific perception rolls that depend on one of the affected senses.

Top it off, Perception has the added bonus of including taste, touch, and smell. That can be used to notice poisons, or tiny creatures crawling on you with stealth, etc. etc.

In the end, Perception and Stealth reduce the rolls needed to play, and speed those parts of the encounter up. It's more versatile, and provides added options. All of which is a bonus, and in my opinion a must for 4e.

Passivearmada wrote:

I think that for the... uh, whatchamacallit, in which if you have five or more ranks in one skill, you get a plus 2 modifier on this other skill? Anyways, if they make Knowledge (mechanics) a skill, then you should get bonuses on Open Lock/Disable Device skill. I hope they only have like 10-15 different skills, but you'd get less skill points at each level. It works out in the end.

Synergy!