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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 10:11PM
#51
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2005
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The primary concern should be whether it is fun to be forced to play a character that doesn't match what you wanted and is inferior to everyone else's for a possibly year-long campaign simply because you rolled the dice differently on day one.
It pretty much boils down to this for me. Is it really fun to be forced to play a character with crappy stats? For many people the answer is no, thus i find point buy to be a fair alternative. If you really want to play a character with poor stats because that somehow enhances your RP concept, all the power to you; feel free to throw away some of your points.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 11:26PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2004
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It might be possible to keep some randomness while still making things more even. The trick would be to keep the system simple though. Personally, I like having some randomness. This can, in effect, let the dice decide what class I start out as, or it can imply interesting directions for character development (sometimes at least).
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 12:11AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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Do you also throw fits about how Mario is oppressing the Koopas with his neo-conservative warmongering?
Wow.
What a fabulous concept.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 3:50AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Dec 24, 2002
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I think if players were polled during the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition, nearly everyone would be saying that they of course they like rolling for ability scores and hit points. Now a majority seem to favor choice over dice.
If this pattern continues, by the time 5th comes out, rolling will seem a foreign concept to most players. For someone who started at 1st, its good to see this kind of change in attitude that will keep the game going forward.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 5:02AM
#55
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The first time I played D&D I rolled 3d6 six times and placed them in stats where they fell. It was pretty cool to see what I got and what I could get.
Well, thirty years later the fun in the game is not in making the character, but doing things with the character I envisioned before play began. Players need, for the most part, to feel like a member of equal standing in a team of heroes. The occasional player or group who prefers role playing over meta gaming is not going to be bothered by a wide variance in character ability; I think that's the exception and not the rule.
I think it is better to have a system that provides for characters who start out pretty equal in relative power and potential. A point buy system of some type seems the easiest way to achieve that to me. Experienced players don't enter the game like I did thirty years ago thinking "I wonder what I'll get." They enter character creation thinking "I want to build a drow elf monk with a couple levels of cleric thrown in."
It's not fun for a player who envisioned a certain type of character to have to settle for something else.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 6:04AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2004
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Ability generation is instead all about comparing the PCs to each other.
You missed an important point. It's also about comparing the PCs to the system.
By "the system" I explicitly do not mean "monsters" or "encounters". These are shaped by the system, but as you note are within the DM's purview. Rather, I mean the inherent assumptions in the rules.
At 25 points, a 13 feat pre-req in a non-critical score is a difficult decision. Generally, there are at least two scores that you want to dump at least 14 in, so that uses up half your points (12/25) right out of the gate. Dropping 5 more points to get a 13 in a score you're not going to exploit heavily is a significant investment.
32 points is 7 more than 25. That mightn't look like a lot, until you realise that you can raise an 8 to a 14 and still have a point to spare over 25. That's a huge difference.
Similarly, I've seen arguments that point buy shouldn't use a scaling cost scale, because it's "just another +1". But probability maths doesn't work like that. If the value matters, each +1 is worth more than the last. +1 is only of low value in a situation where you're almost certain to succeed anyway, at which point you'd instead buy +1 in something more valuable.
There's also the problem that higher abilities tend to tilt toward offense rather than defense (LA has much the same problem). This creates a fragile game ecosystem - the line between "easy" and "fatal" gets thinner, which makes it that much harder for the DM to present appropriately challenging encounters.
"Yeah, yeah, Nom. That's the tired old 'what point buy value' argument; how does it apply to rolling?".
Rolling is high-variance. A relatively small shift in the point-buy baseline can have significant impact on power. Now instead apply a randomisation that is quite unlikely to land on the median. Given that relatively small changes can significantly alter the power level, randomisation will generally result in parties with some generally weak or normal members and some members who are offensively potent and defensively normal. This is really hard to plot adventures to. Things balanced for the weaker members will be trounced by the tougher members, while something pitched slightly too hard for the tougher members will be devastating to everyone.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 11:00AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2007
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Rolling means that the DM has to watch as stats are generated, a task I'd rather do without.
Not if you actually trust your group. I do, ergo, I don't have to watch them roll.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 11:09AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Aug 12, 2004
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Not if you actually trust your group. I do, ergo, I don't have to watch them roll.
Well, not only that, but each member of your group has to trust each other member of your group.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 12:06PM
#59
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Well, not only that, but each member of your group has to trust each other member of your group.
And everyone in your group being completely ignorant of statistics...
I wrote a dice rolling statistical calculator once a while back, and would plug peoples rolled stats into it...
"Wow, your stats a are 1 in 3 billion chance of being rolled"... "wow, yours too... and yours..."...
Yeah, I don't trust dice rolling, and I honestly don't think it is a fair system for players all trying to enjoy the same game. I am more than happy if a GM makes us roll to put my horribly statted character in the frontline of every battle with no armor.
I get another chance to roll a 1 in a billion combination 
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 12:28PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2007
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Point buy but unweighted please. I hate trying to tally up weighted point buys to check pcs stats. And do somethign to help and stanarize hp. As somneone said nothign sucks more then to roll a 1,s 2,s and 3,s for you fighters hp
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