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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 9:49AM
#41
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My. How... Orwellian.
No true variance. Thanks to point buy optimization, every fighter at my table will have the same stats and HP.
Yes, because Power Attack and Combat Expertise, the two fighter feat tree foundations, have the same prerequisites ...
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 10:26AM
#42
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Point buy is obviously the only fair, as well as balanced system for character generation. Point buy should become the standard with dice rolling optional systems as the alternative.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 11:45AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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Yes, because Power Attack and Combat Expertise, the two fighter feat tree foundations, have the same prerequisites ...
Agreed. 
Let’s see. Trying to remember the last Fighter I played. I think my stats were along the lines of Str 14, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12.
Clearly, everybody will build characters exactly the same way. (end sarcasm)
Oh—I finally picked up SWS today. I was happy to note that 4d6-drop-lowest, 25-point-buy, and standard-array were all listed at the beginning of the character creation section. I imagine the same will be true for 4E.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 11:55AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2006
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Yes, because Power Attack and Combat Expertise, the two fighter feat tree foundations, have the same prerequisites ...
My god. How blind I was. Thank you for pointing out that I will have TWO different fighter (possibly even THREE, what with ranged weapons) clone lines.
I guess I will have to write letters of apology to all my players who were in games that were ruined (RUINED!) by one player having higher stats than the others. I even felt a sympathy cringe as I read of the fighter that rolled poorly on hit points. "Oh no," I wailed, "he cannot rely upon just standing there and taking hits!" I wept shameful tears as I realized that a random die roll had forced the character to use tactics.
While I am intrigued by the ideas set forth in "Harrison Bergeron," I have neither the need nor intent to play in that world.
As I have said before: Put any and all attribute generation/selection systems you want in the PHB. I will let my players use whatever ones they want.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 12:24PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 12, 2004
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HB is a bad analogy. If everyone had to play characters with a 3 in every stat, then yes, it would be. But the point of PB is not to bring everyone down to the same level, but to ensure that everyone gets the same starting point. But whatever, move PB to the PH.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 1:45PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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Point buy is obviously the only fair, as well as balanced system for character generation. Point buy should become the standard with dice rolling optional systems as the alternative.
I have some players who like each. I prefer point buy for NPCs, and it just feels better for PBEM. But I would like to see both in the new PHB, and I don't mind which is optional. I would like them to generate PCs that are roughly equivalent on average, though.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 2:02PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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My. How... Orwellian.
No true variance. Thanks to point buy optimization, every fighter at my table will have the same stats and HP. If you are going this far, why not simply have three iconic characters for each class (one per power level) with no rules for character generation and be done with it? It would ensure that people haven't cheated on their rolls and guarantee that each character is playable. 
Yes, the PB crowd can deluge me with horror stories about how their gaming experience was somehow sullied because the people at their table had vastly different stats. While I am truly glad that they somehow managed to soldier on through that hardship and managed to survive until the Point Buy system, like a leather-clad Daniel Day-Lewis rescued them in the wilderness, I am somehow fresh faced enough to accept my players at their word when they come to me with a character.
By all means, put both in there. I am not harmed by what system(s) my players use. I allow both in my games currently and will continue to do so.
Errr... you do realize D&D is a "game", not a template for political and economic structure? Games are supposed to be fun. Do you also throw fits about how Mario is oppressing the Koopas with his neo-conservative warmongering?
The primary concern should be whether it is fun to be forced to play a character that doesn't match what you wanted and is inferior to everyone else's for a possibly year-long campaign simply because you rolled the dice differently on day one.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 9:33PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Feb 15, 2004
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Errr... you do realize D&D is a "game", not a template for political and economic structure? Games are supposed to be fun. Do you also throw fits about how Mario is oppressing the Koopas with his neo-conservative warmongering?
Don't be too hard on PHGraves for calling point buy "Orwellian." It's an improvement over the last rolling vs point buy thread I saw where some one actually compared point buy to the Nazi Germany and Fascism.  The sad thing is that I'm not kidding about that.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 9:38PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2006
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I'm all for point buy. Rolling, while classic is too much trouble and too random. The option should probably still be in there but I don't like how unbalanced it is.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2007 - 9:50PM
#50
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I also vote for Point Buy as the default method.
What a lot of people don't realise, IMO, is that ability generation doesn't really affect how your character interracts with the world, because at the end of the day it is entirely at the DM's discretion what you meet there. This is what makes pen and paper D&D fundamentally different to online and computerised games. If your DM throws easy encounters at you, you'll beat them no matter how low your ability scores are, and vice versa with difficult encounters.
In pen and paper D&D, you're not going to be "better" than the monster unless the DM wants you to be.
Ability generation is instead all about comparing the PCs to each other. And against that background one of three things can happen with random ability generation systems:
1. All players roll high: The DM adjusts campaign difficulty accordingly.
2. All players rolls low: The DM adjusts campaign difficulty accordingly.
3. Some roll high and some roll low: Problems arise. At best, the low-rolling players get overshadowed by the high-rolling ones. At worst, the campaign difficulty is either so high that the low-rolling players are ineffectual and/or die continuously or so low that the high-rolling players are glory-stealing machines.
There is very little benefit in a group sense to a "roll" method, but potentially huge disadvantages. Conversely, there are huge gameplay advantages to a "point buy" method and relatively few disadvantages.
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