Replace a death spell with sleep then. Taking out an entire party or encounter with only one roll is not fun, no matter how much it speeds up or simplifies the game.
My opinion on this subject, assuming sleep stays consistant (and there's not really a reason for it not to, it's a balanced spell.)
The party that stays within a 10ft. burst, while the enemy wizard casts a 1 round spell, and doesn't include an elf or have at LEAST 1 person with a decent will defense, and has everyone get slept just learned a very valuable lesson about D&D.
Above all else, the most dangerous thing that can ever be said during any sort of testing scenario is "It's just the test." Assumption that an issue, no matter how glaring, will be fixed in the final product is the most devastating assumption that any tester can make, and the most disastrous of excuses for any flaw.
So to make a simpler role you have to add heroic levels in addition to class hack bonus.
Prob 2
Ac is ac. nothing is going to change that.
Defense, if it is used in D&D, is going to be different than AC, and it is gonna confuse the new player as well as it did you.
Saves or defense will be rolled when avoiding damage from an effect. That would be spells, effects and such, just like 3.5.
AC would be when someone tries to hit you.
are you less confused now?
prob 3
Area effect spells... does this mean the wizard will have to roll for each target, or that one roll will fizzle the whole spell... this is broken...
prob 4
Magic works in this way, wear individuals have to avoid or resist the magic being used (tend to be why it is called saves, of course) Turning it into Defenses will change the dimanic of magic, Vacian casting aside, and really make more like Dragon Ball Z, where what spell you use won't make much difference, just use a blanket blast like a gun.
It isn't Star Wars, and shouldn't play that way. There was a purpose for the change in Star Wars. To make gun play less lethal and provide a mechanic for a system with magic replaced by technology. Different settings shouldn't have blanket rules to hinder it just because it happens to be "D20" or newer than the old rules.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I don't mind spending time in as a DM to allow each PC a save. Or to roll a save for each person in a AoE spells...why it so much diminishes the realyy unfun of the action encounter.
Netherek wrote:
Which is easy for multiclassing? Saga.
Again I fin 3.x really simple...I guessing might be little to simplistic gor me. saga
Netherek wrote:
Which has the fewest complications? Saga.
Again really never have a issue because a DM's job is to make a ruling if there is a complication.
Netherek wrote:
Which is more exciting for the caster? Saga.
I don't know as a player I love confusion going off in a crowd. Also I don't need to roll a dice to have fun. And lastly it sucks when you roll a one and you area effect spell does nothing.
Netherek wrote:
Which makes more sense, 3.x's AC and reflex saves to avoid damage or Saga's Reflex Defense? Saga.
Are you serious? Dextereity is a representive of overall speed and agility. Haveing a good amount of both these things help in dodging attacks and rolling with impacts of say most AoE. While it might be more simpler it definitly makes no sense. So a fat slow guy who happens to be 15th level should be harder to hit then a 12th level quick and agile guy? I think you should look up the defination of sense.
Netherek wrote:
Which is easier to build high level characters? Saga.
I don't know haven't played high level PCs in Saga yet...but for high level NPC it takes me about 20 min(Epic up to 30th level 40 min). Which is quick enough for me.
Netherek wrote:
Which is more balanced between classes? Saga.
Tell me to jedi and there ilk still run roughshod over normals? I mean the biggest problem with the 2nd edition was that it was the jedi can do what you can and do it better? If they improved it I am curious.
Also with a very little minor adjustment and few feats and PrCs yes 3.x the classes are balanced
My opinion on this subject, assuming sleep stays consistant (and there's not really a reason for it not to, it's a balanced spell.)
The party that stays within a 10ft. burst, while the enemy wizard casts a 1 round spell, and doesn't include an elf or have at LEAST 1 person with a decent will defense, and has everyone get slept just learned a very valuable lesson about D&D.
1st...sleep is on action to cast...you can still hold your action in Saga right?...even if you can't let say the enemy wizard win initiative. Boom he goes spell is cast. while the wizards is casting the spell the party is not able to react.
2nd...ah now every party needs a elf to survive the on shot spell kill...wait since they are rewritting evrything who says the elves are going to be to continued to be immune or they just don't translate to a straight bonus.
3rd...Sure everyone can have a decent will save. A good roll will still beat them all.
4th..I have kill more people who have spread out to avoid AoEs then with AoEs, How I kill them in detail...trust me it is better to say where your fellow adventures can support you. It is tacticaly sound in real life to by the way. But let just say it is just the place is designed that makes then all in the radius. Like a elavator.
5th...But ok let just say for fun there is a elf in the party or one of them has a super will save def. for his level. One person is still standing. And he is now fighting a encounter against a 4 creature each one able to give anyone of PCs a good fight one-on-one. Sorry that person will proably be dead or close to it before he gets a chance to wake up one of his comrades. Also he is really done if it is a spell like Color Spray, or Mass Hold Person, or even Entangle.
Yup they got rid of the saves or dies but put in a alot of one turn victories...sounds like M:tG to me.
The only flaw in John's theory is that we are assuming that evasion survives.
Plus, THIS makes more sense as what evasion should be.
Evasion: At 2nd Level, the character can resist 5 points of damage from area effect spells. At levels 7, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, and 29, this damage resistance vs. Area Effect spells increases by +5.
That's more than reasonable, there's still an effect roll for half damage, but being a more skilled rogue, ranger or scout suddenly makes more sense than a blanket effect gained at 2nd, 5th, or 9th level.
Turning it into Defenses will change the dimanic of magic, Vacian casting aside, and really make more like Dragon Ball Z, where what spell you use won't make much difference, just use a blanket blast like a gun.
Way to work that in sideways there, completely outside of any actual context.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Way to concentrate on one part of the statement while not commenting on the rest of the points brought up...
Yay, troll.
The rest of the post is the same thing everyone who's anti-defenses has posted time and time again. It didn't really warrant replying too. That same point has been hashed and re-hashed and has come to nothing. Neither side is willing to budge on it, period.
I was merely noting your on your ability to throw in a completely unrelated anime reference to give your arguement credence.
In the game called FATAL AC = An** Circumference. The name AC is irrelevant.
thaX wrote:
Defense, if it is used in D&D, is going to be different than AC, and it is gonna confuse the new player as well as it did you.
How would it? Your Reflex Defense would be calculated just like the old D&D AC. Dex + Size + Armor + Misc. (+ Level, if that is used)
thaX wrote:
Saves or defense will be rolled when avoiding damage from an effect. That would be spells, effects and such, just like 3.5.
AC would be when someone tries to hit you.
are you less confused now?
I am confused on how you can so blindly ignore that a Reflex Defense and an Armor Save are the same. One is your ability to Dodge, the other is your ability to not get hit. This sounds very "the exact same thing" to me. And if its the fixed base 10 that bothers you, you can roll your defense instead of taking it a fixed number.
thaX wrote:
prob 3
Area effect spells... does this mean the wizard will have to roll for each target, or that one roll will fizzle the whole spell... this is broken...
The caster makes his attack roll for his spell (already confirmed to happen in 4E) them checks it against either the effected character/creatures' fixed or rolled defense score (as per DM and players agreeing what they prefer). Not broken one bit.
thaX wrote:
prob 4
Magic works in this way, wear individuals have to avoid or resist the magic being used (tend to be why it is called saves, of course) Turning it into Defenses will change the dimanic of magic, Vacian casting aside, and really make more like Dragon Ball Z, where what spell you use won't make much difference, just use a blanket blast like a gun.
As pointed out before, this statement is nothing more than vilification by association and in my opinion only works against your argument.
thaX wrote:
It isn't Star Wars, and shouldn't play that way. There was a purpose for the change in Star Wars. To make gun play less lethal and provide a mechanic for a system with magic replaced by technology. Different settings shouldn't have blanket rules to hinder it just because it happens to be "D20" or newer than the old rules.
Are you really sure of that? Take SECR, strip out the its fluff and its just a set of mechanics for running a fast paced fun and dramatic storytelling tabletop RPG.
Fast paced fun and dramatic storytelling tabletop game... I wonder what this would be with some medieval high-fantasy flavor, oh yeah! its D&D
thaX wrote:
Defenses in D&D is a bad idea, simple as that.
To quote The Big Lebowski: "Thats just your opinion dude."
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
