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6 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2007 - 9:38AM
#381
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which just leads us to believe that they're going to go with the "Never Die" mentality of Saga Edition.
No, it apparently leads you to believe something completely erroneous.
All it means is that the spells that used to kill/disable you based on one saving throw are gone or altered in such a way that it doesn't happen anymore.
and that concept is full of failure due to the inherent lack of risk.
Risk != instant death.
You like that stuff, go play something with a crit=die system. I personally like the idea that I'd actually have to be beaten, not just fail a saving throw.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2007 - 12:08PM
#382
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2003
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A few quick hits from an entirely too-cynical player:
(1) Many spells work against an enemy's armor class. Off the top of my head: Spiritual Weapon, Thundrlance, Faithful Hound. I don't think moving a few more over to this category is all that problematic. Nice way to mitigate some of the more powerful effects.
(2) I really, really like the concept of static saves for the PC spellcaster. I can now roll dice, just like those melee guys. And I don't have to wonder whether or not the DM is messing with me when he rolls his fifth "successful" will save in a row for the BBEG.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2007 - 12:13PM
#383
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Date Joined:
Jul 14, 2006
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I don't understand why this is such a bother for some people.
If saves work anything like they do in Star Wars Saga Edition, just drop the base 10 to Reflex, Fortitude, Defense and AC and roll a frikkin' d20.
Viola.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2007 - 1:23PM
#384
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2003
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I don't understand why this is such a bother for some people.
If saves work anything like they do in Star Wars Saga Edition, just drop the base 10 to Reflex, Fortitude, Defense and AC and roll a frikkin' d20.
Viola.
He's right - the Devs have said before that the base 10 we add to our AC in DnD is just basically "taking 10" on your defense. You could easily replace it. But remember - doing that is a double edged sword. You are just as likley to take a hit that you normally wouldnt have as dodge a hit you normally wouldnt have.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2007 - 3:03PM
#385
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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Quoted for truth.
If armor helps you dodge, weave and deflect attacks in combat, it should help against all attacks that can be dodged or deflected.
Chain shirt does not help vs a burst of fire. Full plate may even get you into more trouble since it stays hot even after the burst is over. Jumping out of the burst area does help you. Full plate even makes it even more difficult for you to jump out of the burst area.
Result: Reflex and AC should be different things. Reflex helps to avoid being hit, AC helps avoiding damage by anything that can be blocked by armor.
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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6 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2007 - 3:24PM
#386
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Chain shirt does not help vs a burst of fire. Full plate may even get you into more trouble since it stays hot even after the burst is over. Jumping out of the burst area does help you. Full plate even makes it even more difficult for you to jump out of the burst area.
Result: Reflex and AC should be different things. Reflex helps to avoid being hit, AC helps avoiding damage by anything that can be blocked by armor.
I'd rather have a leather jacket, a mail shirt, or even a full plate, when faced an explosion, that facing it naked.
EDIT: i think 2e complete fighter book had a rule that said if you are in a full plate, with a full helm, you got +4 to save throws vs explosions, go figure.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 09, 2007 - 8:41AM
#387
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Another way to look at this is now Casters get to roll to hit just like fighters do, and thus it makes playing a caster more fun. Because you now decide if your spell works or not, the DM is not rolling dice behind the screen and telling you what happens.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 09, 2007 - 5:13PM
#388
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Date Joined:
Mar 13, 2007
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Alright, as someone in the middle, I am going to give a brief argument for and against AC, as well as for and against static defense. Here goes:
AC is your ability to negate attack, and while that seems similar to reflex defense, there is one key difference. You can block a melee attack, or even a ranged attack if you have a shield,(although that is more reflexive, and less skill based), even if you aren't fast. Your skill makes up for that, which is why it should remain seperate.
However, dodging also helps, and dodging explosions and spells is similar to dodging arrows, or even spears. So it should be the reflex defense. In the middle of this would be to break the reflex defense up into parts, weapon skill, dodging, and armor. Spells would usually ignore weapon skill, but not armor(shrapnel is blocked by full plate), although some might not ignore weapon skill(knocking away a magic missile or something), and some might ignore armor(since all that matters is being out of the blast radius if the blast has no physical form and simply passes through matter)
Another thing to consider is that spells are deadly. 1 roll to save makes them more random, since it is easier for 1 person to roll a 20, than for 6 people to roll ones(odds of 1:20, and 1:64,000,000 respectively) stabilizing the spell somewhat, thus reducing the weight carried on a single die. Attacks on the other hand are far less powerful individually, although you can get more of them, so more dice end up rolled, which produces the same effect.
On the other hand, it is slow. Static defenses speed things up hugely, especially when it is just the DM rolling. While 4 people each rolling a die and adding up the number, then figuring out if it works or not is not much slower than 1 person doing the same thing, the DM rolling 4 or more times is much slower. It is a trade-off between speed and effectiveness. Having a group all die because of one lucky roll sucks, but so does watching the DM roll over and over and do math while you sit their. Rolling over and over and doing math gets old too.
My opinion: Reflex defense should be composed of three parts, with the heroic bonus being split between weapon skill and dodging, and should cover both AC and Reflex. Players should roll saves against NPC group attacks, and should roll attacks against NPC groups, since it is hardly as irritating to lose a few more monsters as a DM. Plus, most important creatures tend to be individuals, so the odds are similar either way.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 09, 2007 - 11:19PM
#389
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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Chain shirt does not help vs a burst of fire. Full plate may even get you into more trouble since it stays hot even after the burst is over. Jumping out of the burst area does help you. Full plate even makes it even more difficult for you to jump out of the burst area.
Result: Reflex and AC should be different things. Reflex helps to avoid being hit, AC helps avoiding damage by anything that can be blocked by armor.
I would argue the statement that armour is not good against explosions or fire effects.
When armour like platemail or a chain shirt is described, the armour is not strictly the metal armour. Armour is normally worn with thick layers of woolen or quilted padding to absorb some of the shock of attacks. The metal armour resists the tearing and penetration to internals (like kevlar weave protects against bullets penetrating the flesh). The padding spreads and absorbs the force of the impact as it trys to protect the raw trauma of the concusion that leads to deep bruise damage.
Against an explosion, the armouring will spread the force over a wider area and the padding that is internal to the amour helps cushion the blow. This is far better then getting hit with no armour.
Against an extreme of temperature, the surface metal does get hot but the ability of the metal to conduct heat actually helps in the insulation and dissipation of temperature. It is the surface that is hot while the padding underneath remains cool. The metal's conduction of heat also means that it will radiate it away quickly. This is again better then having bare skin get hit with the flame.
Another point from watching the history channel on medieval armour has to deal with plate armour verses chain armour. Plate armour is built with a convex shape that helps in two ways. The convex shape tends to bend force away from a flat contact (think sloping tank armour verses a vertical wall). Next, convex armour is much stronger to resist denting (think of the differance between a straight piece of wood and an arched piece of wood -- the arch is much stronger).
There is a reason that bomb specialist wear armour when they diffuse bombs instead of going in with almost no protection.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 11, 2007 - 12:24AM
#390
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Good point. Static saves will be infinitely superior for anyone who:
(a) Can't be bothered to calculate their saving throw bonuses before play begins; and
(b) Can't handle simple arithmetic at anything approaching a reasonable speed.
Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
In other words, it will make the game easier for a certain subset of people -- who may be very very bad at math or keeping papers organized but awesome players in other respects -- without actually changing the balance of the game in any way. All it does is take an annoying little piece of bookkeeping away from the players and give it to the DM, where it's centralized and easier to manage.
In what way is this a bad thing? Are going back to the "Anything that makes the math easier lets the stupid riffraff in and pollutes our society of geniuses" crap?
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