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6 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2007 - 9:38PM
#351
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This example applies for the presumed Fixed Defense system as previewed in SECR. Level 1 Fighter Armor Class 10 +size (+0 for medium), +1 (for 13 dex), +5 (for good cheap armor that a lv 1 character can afford, his heroic bonus of +1 is ignored as you cannot use both without specialized training) +1 (Dodge feat)... that is a Armor Class of 17 Level 1 Wizard Caster Check 1d20 + 2 (15 Int), +0 (.5 caster level), +5 (for trained bonus in Spellcraft)... That leads to a Caster Check (attack roll) of 1d20+7. Under this system Casters do not use their base attack bonus to hit with spells. They make a Caster Level Check (that is modified by trained/ranks in a skill appropriate to the caster class) The Wizard will hit 50% of the time. With an Area effect that means 50% of the time the spell will miss. AoE attacks don't fizzle, drop that misconception. Assuming they do not ignore armor direct target spells (rays, ranged touch), they will miss 50% of the time. Missing less frequently then they did on 3.x. If they do ignore armor the ranged touch/ray spells will hit even more often, in the above example, roughly 75% of the time. Now, you're probably going to complain that that makes wizards too powerful, with spells that are even harder to be defended against (or saved against for those still locked in the 3.x mindset). What made high-levels Wizards broken powerful was not the Scorching Rays, Lightning Bolts, Fireballs or Polar Rays. It was the save or die/save or suck spells like Hold Monster, Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate, Wail of the Banshee and Power Word: Stun/Kill. EDIT: Thanks the the new concepts article, AC and Reflex defense are still sticking around, but Reflex is just the Touch AC of 3.x. I can gladly live with that. ... Fixed Defenses are confirmed 
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6 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2007 - 10:10PM
#352
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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Uhmmm.. so instead of an attack roll, I roll against a DC of ... what exactly?
AC? Reflex Defense? A DC made up by the DM/Player on the spot?
Let me look at this again...
So the DC would be the Reflex Defense, sense you want to combine AC with Reflex, and nothing would lower that DC except maybe when the target is caught flat footed.
and there was a thought in this thread that rolling 1's would mean the spell fizzles. (and 20 crits)
btw, you can't miss with a fireball inside of a cave. That is just bonkers. This isn't equipment being used by a jedi, it is spells.
You keep mentioning touch ac/Reflex. If this system is put into place, there wouldn't be one.
Why would the wizard be slaved to a skill for this? Is he gonna have to waste feats to augment the skill and will it only be used for attacks now instead of trying to determine what the other guy is casting?
Trained skills are out, already been confirmed. It was an oversimplification that is alright in the star wars genre, but would be more limiting in D&D.
What is this Herioc bonus that you elude to? Prolly not gonna be in 4th, whatever it is.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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6 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2007 - 10:13PM
#353
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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EDIT: Thanks the the new concepts article, AC and Reflex defense are still sticking around, but Reflex is just the Touch AC of 3.x. I can gladly live with that.
... Fixed Defenses are confirmed
Good, this may make it better for 4th. Spells will be going against Reflex more than likely...
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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6 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2007 - 10:16PM
#354
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Uhmmm.. so instead of an attack roll, I roll against a DC of ... what exactly?
AC or Reflex defense depending on the type of attack spell.
sense you want to combine AC with Reflex
Again, you are making up lies because you are unwilling to understand that we don't care what they call AC or Reflex Defenses in 4E as long as they exist as fixed defenses... which they do. The new design article confirms it.
So the DC would be the Reflex Defense, sense you want to combine AC with Reflex, and nothing would lower that DC except maybe when the target is caught flat footed.
With a Touch Attack you roll against the target's Unarmored Reflex Defense (which is confirmed to be called Reflex Defense).
With a crossbow you roll against the target's Armored Reflex Defense (which is confirmed to be called Armor Class).
I am very happy with this setup.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 05, 2007 - 10:49PM
#355
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Date Joined:
Apr 20, 2006
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You know, I've said this before, but it's always been like that in Saga. Anything that is a "touch attack" in Saga ignores any armor and natural armor bonuses to Reflex Defense. That's it. That's pure and simple. Sheesh. How obvious does it have to be?
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6 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2007 - 1:09AM
#356
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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Spells will continue to target various Defenses, just as they are saved by different saves now. Mind effecting spells will target Will. Area of effect and touch attack spells will target reflex. Attack-type spells will target AC. Draining/death/paralysis spells will target Fortitude.
Pretty much whatever save a spell currently has will be the defense it targets.
Spells will not "fizzle" necessarily on a failed roll; they'll simply have a minor effect, similar to saving for half damage.
Some spells WILL have no effect on failed check -- pretty much the same spells that have no effect on successful save now. Like sleep or command.
A few spells will not target any particular defense but rather a set DC. Healing spells, for example, I imagine will not target a defense but the caster will be required to make a DC roll of (say) 15 or more. Rolling under this will not make the healing spell fizzle, but will generate a very poor amount of healing. Say if a successful roll heals ten points, and 3 more points for each additional five points of DC the cleric beats, a failed heal spell will only heal back five points of damage.
Area of effect spells will work out more or less similarly to the current system in final effect. If a spell caster does not beat someone's Reflex, that person essentialy "made their Reflex save" and so takes half damage. It could work like this:
Spellcaster's roll:
Less than Reflex defense: 1d8
Reflex: 2d8
Reflex + 5: 3d8
Reflex +10: 4d8
Reflex +15: 5d8
etc., up to whatever the spell's established maximum effect is.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2007 - 3:44AM
#357
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The easy solutions are simple in that they ignore the underlaying problem. Having wizards dependent on an attack roll for magic makes for spells that are less effective, easily ignored and unreliable.
Yeah, that is why in Rolemaster spellcasters suck 
/sarcasm off
To roll for mass effects and have the spell fizzle completely on a bad roll is insane.
It works perfectly in L5R and other RPG. You roll to gather the power to do the spell. You fumble it, no spell is cast.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2007 - 5:49AM
#358
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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Fixed. 
I know my life is better since I found out these forums have ignore lists.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2007 - 8:58AM
#359
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I know my life is better since I found out these forums have ignore lists.
I've known and loved it for a while.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2007 - 9:45AM
#360
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I know my life is better since I found out these forums have ignore lists.
Frankly, if you just put all the trolls in the 4e forums on ignore you lose upwards of half the posts.
Granted, it's a much more pleasant experience, but it's nowhere nearly as diverse.
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