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caeruleus wrote:

Perhaps. Or the demon lords could serve those purposes.

Obviously. But, unless it changes in 4E, a god is a different thing compared to a demon lord. First of a god is more powerful, it has a church instead of a cult, so it can have a larger network, more resources or work in plane light of society. Also, a god has avatars instead of aspects, knowledge of events regarding their portfolio. Its goals can be different too.

Of course destruction of a rival church or retriving a lost artifact of the church may seem no different then destroying the ennemy of the cult or retrieving a artifact for the lord. But it is. Its not the same fluff, not the feal.

Haldrik: Astral = Divine! Its that simple.

Caeruleus: It may be simple, but it also seems incorrect. Here's what the cosmology article said: "The Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea’s unlimited silver deeps."

Two points:

1) It says "the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind": psionics.

2) It says that the divine realms are within the Astral Sea, not that the Astral Sea itself is divine.

So, the corrollary would be that Astral =/= Divine.

Relevant problem. Nevertheless the fluff itself seems problematic.

The New Cosmology consolidates so elegantly - its even archetypically compelling!

Unfortunately, its Astral Sea consolidates the realm of the "gods" (Divine) and the realm of the "mind" (Psionic) into one plane. This blending is self-defeating when D&D strives to make Divine and Psionic separate power sources.

The solution is easy. Give the plane of the Astral Sea to the Divine. Give some other plane to Psionics.

In the "Astral Sea", what was once Outer Planes are now islands. In other words, all the gods now live under the same sky, in the same place. Its confusing to say, every creature in the Astral Sea is Divine ... except the Astral Sea itself is Psionic. Since 4e strives to streamline its mechanics and flavor, its more elegant to declare the entire plane of the Astral Sea to be Divine.

Regarding fluff: Delivering the Astral Sea to the Divine is easy! Just change the fluff's sentence from, "The Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind", to, "The Astral Sea is a domain of the spirits." (These spirits, including angelic spirits, differ from ghosts.)

Flavorwise, consolidating Astral with Divine wins too. The difference between the Divine and Psionic corresponds to the difference between the "spirit" and the "soul" (where soul means physical mindforce).

Moreover, D&Ds concept of "Astral" disconnects from the Material Plane. You cant actually see the material from the astral. The astral is its own otherworldly dimension, which doesnt correspond well to various concepts of mindforce which are very much this-worldly. D&Ds Astral Sea corresponds more closely to shamanic spirit journeys into the Spirit World. (They describe their journeys as thru rivers, over land, thru chambers of a palace, etc. .. and across seas.) In other words, the Astral Sea corresponds well to the otherworldy realm of the spirits and gods. Divine.

By contrast, Psionics focuses on the mindforce of each person - but it also engages the mindforce of the universe, with which it is ultimately identified. For example, in Hindu philosophy, the Atman is a persons own mindforce, and the Brahman is the universe's mindforce. Thus in D&D nomenclature, the Material Plane itself can have its own cosmic mindforce, which intimately unifies and reciprocates every personal mindforce within it.

This cosmic mindforce seems identical to Star Wars "Force". However, where Psionics focuses on the personal mindforce, the Force focuses on the cosmic mindforce. By the way, the omnipresence of the cosmic mindforce is why Psionic can do out-of-body projection, telepathy, remote view, teleportation, etc.

So Psionics corresponds immediately with the Material Plane itself, and only peripherally with the other planes. While peripheral, there is Psionic interaction with other planes. These other planes themselves reflect the various features of the Material Plane (ideas, nature, elements, entropy, etc.). And, conscious beings in the other realms have minds. Even so, the "home plane" of Psionics is the Material.

In sum:

Material Plane = Psionic
Astral Sea = Divine
Elemental Chaos = Arcane!
Feywild = Druidic nature magic!
Shadowfell = Necromancy

Even so, the archetypical structure models real-life cosmologies.

Moreover, the recommendation to consolidate planes and power sources streamlines mechanics and makes flavor coherent.

PS, astral-sailing Githyanki can still access the Psionic magic of the Material Plane, but in the same way that Priests can access the Divine magic of the Astral Sea.

caeruleus wrote:

Yes, but don't forget the home plane advantage.

I don't understand ?

Martial = body?