|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 12:36PM
#51
|
Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2007
|
There it is: Martial Artist is someone who trained in martial Arts; Fighting Monk is someone who had intense physical and Spiritual training, following more or less precise teachings (something like Zen or whatever else)... that's in what the Monk is Lawful: he follows those rules, though he may wander, disagree with/disrespect others' traditions (besides, any person can despise traditions which don't belong to him, even the stereotype of Legality)... I don't agree with Monk's Alignment restriction (especially 3.5's), but I understand what the developers wanted to say, and I must admit that the thought is not wrong... The stories the monks themselves tell about their greatest legends tell a different story. Chaotic like you wouldn't believe. Without telling specific stories, I don't know how well I can convey the concept, but any number of them didn't give a flying **** about tradition, enlightenment, etc., and just wanted to be better fighters and/or go out and do what they personally thought needed to be done. Many DnD characters played as chaotic didn't fit the alignment this well.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 12:47PM
#52
|
|
|
Alignment is only one part of what shapes a character's world view. Other influences include but are not limited to: age, race, gender, ability scores, character class(es), social/economic class, education, religion (or lack therof), national origin, political views, membership in any organizations, and the specifics of personal experience.
Yes, alignment has bearing upon all of those things, and is in turn influenced by all of those things, but it is by no means the end-all of a character's thoughts or actions.
You can have two people who match up exactly in all of the above catagories, and yet still have differences in their personalities and outlook.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 12:55PM
#53
|
Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2007
|
Alignment is only one part of what shapes a character's world view. Other influences include but are not limited to: age, race, gender, ability scores, character class(es), social/economic class, education, religion (or lack therof), national origin, political views, membership in any organizations, and the specifics of personal experience.
Yes, alignment has bearing upon all of those things, and is in turn influenced by all of those things, but it is by no means the end-all of a character's thoughts or actions.
You can have two people who match up exactly in all of the above catagories, and yet still have differences in their personalities and outlook. As long as their behavior coincides with their alignment, perhaps with small exceptions. I've had friends tell me what they thought my alignment would be, in DnD terms, and why. I've heard everything from LG to CN. And each and every one of them was fully justified. The alignment system is insufficient to describe me, a rather young man from an unremarkable background in the modern United States. Are fantasy adventurers supposed to be less complex?
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:01PM
#54
|
|
|
The whole point is that it's simplified. Alignment is not supposed to be a personality assessment of your character. It's a rough way of categorizing what values are considered important in the default setting. The labels "conservative" and "liberal" are also oversimplified. But in the right contexts, they can be useful for making comparisons. Correct.
Well, the problem is isn't so much with alignment, as with alignment restrictions for classes. Furthermore, I think the reason you find alignment so stifling is because you take it too literally. No, quite the opposite. He's ignoring what the rules clearly state so that he can have an easier time arguing against them.
Alignment restrictions can be reserved only for Divine-powered classes, and that's fine with me.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:07PM
#55
|
|
|
As long as their behavior coincides with their alignment, perhaps with small exceptions. I've had friends tell me what they thought my alignment would be, in DnD terms, and why. I've heard everything from LG to CN. And each and every one of them was fully justified. The alignment system is insufficient to describe me, a rather young man from an unremarkable background in the modern United States. Are fantasy adventurers supposed to be less complex? Yes, they are.
They are not real people, they are fictional characters in a fantasy setting. In that setting, Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are very real forces very basic to reality. Mortals are affected by this, and their personal natures are described in those cosmic terms.
And you're True Neutral, because you have both Lawful and Chaotic aspects. :P See, we have the same alignment, and we don't agree on stuff! :D
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:16PM
#56
|
|
|
It's partly fault of the 3rd Ed. PHBs. When you look into the 2nd Ed. PHB, you'll find alignment throughly and easily understabable explained. I think the 3E PHB is plenty clear and affords plenty of leeway.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:36PM
#57
|
Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
|
New Alignment Choice: None
I suggest this as a half-step between retaining alignment and abandoning it wholesale. The "None" selection means the character simply has not chosen affirmatively to align with one of the cosmic/philosophical poles. He doesn't particularly care about such concerns, which really should really only concern the gods and their servants (clerics and others who affirmatively choose to serve an alignment).
This would also sever the notion of alignment as dictating player behavior. Obviously even those with "None" as their alignment *have* drives and mores and codes. They are just personal mores and codes and not dictated by the extraplanar centers of alignment. Characters may have it noted -- parenthetically -- that while they do not serve an alignment, nevertheless they generally comport with some aspect of alignment. So an insanely evil character like the Joker might have the alignment None (Chaotic Evil) to indicate that while he cares not for the struggles of the gods he does incline to an anarchic and evil outlook. But his alignment is extremely soft in the sense it describes his basic outlook, not some rigid philosophical or religious commitment to Chaos or Evil per se.
This also allows evil, selfish beings to serve alignments they do not actually believe in. While good-aligned creatures would tend to serve alignments they actually believe in -- integrity and all that -- there is no reason why a man who is chaotic and neutral could not serve Lawful Evil *simply because the devils have offered him a sweet deal.* Such a man might have his alignment described as Lawful Evil (chaotic, neutral) to indicate that his actual tendencies diverge from the cosmic principle he serves.
Of course in many cases alignment will be far simpler: A true Lawful Good paladin will just be Lawful Good.
But for many characters the "None" alignment just make sense. Yes, Paladins and Clerics will tend to have a stated alignment; not so with the great majority of adventurers, nevermind peasants. What on earth could a lowly peasant care about alignment? It hardly affects him and he is powerless to advance it. And further he hasn't the time to bother himself with such abstractions that mean so little to his life of toil and want.
I just propose this as a compromise between those demanding alignment be kept and those (the majority I think) who believe it to be a relic of the primitive roots of wargaming. A ranger should be able to select an alignment "None," probably with the (Good) subdescriptor, and maybe with the (anti-authoritarian, good) subdiscriptor if he's a bit like Robin Hood, to indicate he personally has no stake in the cosmic balance but his general moral code places him in the good camp.
Parentheticals can depart from the good, evil, chaos paradigm as well. A rogue might call his alignment None (reluctantly good) to show he's the sort of guy who does not want to be a hero but often winds up being one, against his better judgment.
Orcs? What's their alignment? Probably None (evil). Ditto most humanoids.
Save the true alignment for those few people who actually consciously strive to serve an alignment and of course the numerous outsiders whose primary goal is to advance it. On earth (or Oerth or Aerth or Middle earth or Hyboria or Newhon or wherever) most people wouldn't have a real alignment as D&D defines it. It's just not part of their character concept. So rather forcing them to choose an alignment and then simply ignore it, acknowlege reality (both game play reality and real-world reality) and allow them to say they don't give a rat's haunch about such things but have the alignment None.
It opens up a much greater range of options. No longer is player behavior straightjacketed by a rather simplistic alignment system; via the parenthetical, characters can define their basic morality and tendencies however they like. We can have a fiendish wizard who's actually a fascistic tyrant even while serving demons: alignment Chaotic Evil (tyrannical, fascist evil). And plenty of characters who have the alignment None but some drive or agenda-- a knight might be None (code of honor, chivalrous, good).
I suppose the parentheticals are a bit like d20 Modern's allegiances. Allow players to choose both allegiances and tendencies and separate those from alignment per se. Druids would tend to have alignment/allegiance None (veneration of nature) and perhaps a moral tendency as well, so we can have some officially evil tending Druids (alignment: None (veneration of nature, evil)). Etc. As an aside, given that Druids (in D&D, anyway) care about real-world (or prime material plane) things like forests and tides and moons and trees, I've never really understood why they would even concern themselves with nonearthly concerns like championing the extraplanar agenda of the Neutral alignment.
And Conan? Alignment None (fortune-seeker, barbaric code of honor, anti-civilization).
That describes him a hell of a lot better than the thousand attempts to capture his personality, with him decribed variously as Neutral, Neutral (Good), Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Neutral.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:36PM
#58
|
Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2007
|
Yes, they are.
They are not real people, they are fictional characters in a fantasy setting. In that setting, Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are very real forces very basic to reality. Mortals are affected by this, and their personal natures are described in those cosmic terms. Which is why I'm glad alignment as a central part of the rules and default setting is leaving. I can't roleplay a character in a setting where the planes pigeonhole him into a specific attitude, and then influence him to prevent him from changing.
And you're True Neutral, because you have both Lawful and Chaotic aspects. :P See, we have the same alignment, and we don't agree on stuff! :D One thing I've never been described as. True Neutral.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:38PM
#59
|
Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
|
Yes, they are.
They are not real people, they are fictional characters in a fantasy setting. In that setting, Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are very real forces very basic to reality. Mortals are affected by this, and their personal natures are described in those cosmic terms. That's a personal choice though, it doesn't have to be like that, even with alignments.
The basic rules state clearly that within each alignment are a broad number of personality types and that nobody should be expected to be entirely consistent with their alignment every day.
It should really only come into question if someone is broadly, clearly and consistently playing their character in a way that is structurally different from his chosen alignment. Small to moderate aberrations are inconsitencies are normal.
Cosmic forces they may be, but mortals aren't celestials or infernals...they are 'flawed' and mercurial compared to archetypes such as angels and devils.
|
|
|
|
6 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2007 - 1:42PM
#60
|
Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
|
New Alignment Choice: None
I suggest this as a half-step between retaining alignment and abandoning it wholesale. The "None" selection means the character simply has not chosen affirmatively to align with one of the cosmic/philosophical poles. He doesn't particularly care about such concerns, which really should really only concern the gods and their servants (clerics and others who affirmatively choose to serve an alignment). That's what I use "Neutral" for in my games. Makes it more flexible and realistic I think.
|
|
|