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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 1:26PM
#311
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You are infering something that doesn't exist.
Now, where and when are a character's action and attitudes showed? during game at the table and in the background
This section about background here doesn't exist. This isn't about semantics, this is understanding the rules as writen. There are no rules about what the players background is or should be. When the character is first created background can be considered tabula rasa.
Literal interpretation of texts doesn't get you anywhere.
You too said:"can be considered tabula rasa"
Near to the background section in phb there's "personality" as well.
When you create a character, you should write something about his earlier life and personality(I personally describe personality inside background by the way).
Background and personality.period.
Are you telling me that you never consider them when you start playing characters?is that the usual way to create a character?
I can't get your point,sorry.
Then ,about allegiances' drawback: no influences?no advantages?
What about wielding an item designed for good-aligned characters?being immune to holy word and able to cast it at the same time...
I still can't get your point
PS:in "personality" section they state thatyour (as pc) race and alignment can define your personality and that they're surely not enough.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 1:48PM
#312
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No, but being a pyro ice elemental doesn't suddenly make you vulnerable to cold spells either.
And so?It proves my point.
The necromancer and paladin is me munchkinning the hell out of the alignment system to prove a point. Often the best way to hide villains from the paladin is to make them neutral bordering on evil (for the few ones that DON'T have mind blank or undetectable alignment or anti-scry automatically built in). <=partial cynicism
Apart from the fact that necromancers aren't inherently evil, you're contradicting yourself: if the pc is a villain,he should be evil-aligned, otherwise that's stretching the rules, and the dm is allowing that as well.
Any rule can be stretched.
Also the way that many creatures are branded as always evil SOLELY to make them easy xp fodder for the pcs and so the paladin doesn't need to put any thought into what he's doing is the other point I was making.
Another of your claims, if you feel sorry for this, build up a ICC for orcs and ogres.
Putting no thought? If you roleplay a character, you have to put thought in what you make him do.
If you roleplay a monodimensional,stupid,insane and meaningless character so you don't have to think about it, your fault.
I can roleplay a warrior in an alignment-less world who kills any monster on sight for xp, is it a good way to play?No.
Is he more coherent than the paladin? Maybe, who cares?I'm playing poorly.
And yes, we could also scrap the rules, the dice, and all concepts of class/race/whatever and it WOULD help all characters. But since we aren't I'm simply proposing the elimination of easily THE most broken section of D&D.
The assertion that AL is broken is someone's claim, not mine, for instance.
If it is broken then I couldn't argue with you.
Inventing a bad DM or player to prove that the rules are broken is fallacious.
You know, people claim druids and clerics are the most broken classes but there are other people who tell them they had no problem at all with those classes so far, wotc told they hoped people would have applied rules in a less "breaking" way as well.
Whose fault is it?players?rules? both?
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 2:15PM
#313
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Literal interpretation of texts doesn't get you anywhere.
You too said:"can be considered tabula rasa"
Near to the background section in phb there's "personality" as well.
When you create a character, you should write something about his earlier life and personality(I personally describe personality inside background by the way).
Background and personality.period.
Are you telling me that you never consider them when you start playing characters?is that the usual way to create a character?.
No, I don't. But I now see where you are getting this. But since this doesn't say that this should directly tie to the point to alignment, it doesn't make the point.
Then ,about allegiances' drawback: no influences?no advantages?
What about wielding an item designed for good-aligned characters?being immune to holy word and able to cast it at the same time....
That's not an advantage thats a restriction of the spell. Nice try though. Just because you have good as part of your alignment doesn't mean you can cast the spell. Strawman again.
But you opened the door of how Allegiance might work on the new 4e system, lets talk about that.
Ok, we have some items that have alignment restrictions. How do we convert them.
Items that are have good, law, chaos or evil as a restriction. That player would have good, law, chaos or evil as one of thier allegiances. Simple change. Keep all of the flavor or Alignment, spiced with flavor of Allegiances. New items could be created. Maybe a holy sword will only work for a certain allegence like a certain order of knights.
Spells, spell like abilities, and supernatural effects can trigger off of allegiances or creature type. Protection from evil still works against evil creature types that it always has worked before.
PS:in "personality" section they state that your (as pc) race and alignment can define your personality and that they're surely not enough.
I guess that they under stand that they system needs to be fixed as well.:D
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 2:28PM
#314
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- Magic Area Lead
- Space Pirate
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2006
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Just a friendly reminder to keep your posts on topic, polite and respectful.
If you feel the need to say something off the topic to someone, please use the PM system.
~Brak
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 2:51PM
#315
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2007
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I vote please kill alignment. I'm sure my reasons have been expressed by others in the 7 pages of posts I'm not reading.
—fo diggity
Twitter: www.twitter.com/fodigg
Comic Books You Should Have Read: http://tinyurl.com/ycxe9l7
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 3:17PM
#316
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2002
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When you create your pc, you choose your alignment according to its background, then, playing the character, you enrich its background.
To be clear: the alignment is determined by both your background and your in-game actions.
To know what al your character is you have to read its bg and consider its past actions which took place in game.
I was saying in the background of playing the game.
You were saying in the character's background.
Now that that little bit of whatever is cleared up...
If the character is coherent with his past actions, he will follow his alignment.
Or, he'll respond to the actual situation he finds himself in, rather that adhering to some ill-defined concept that, basically, makes ZERO sense.
Nevertheless, they're identified as Juventini people and I can't feel sorry for the fact that I share something with a serial killer, because that thing isn't enough to say we're the same type of person from any point of view.
'Nevertheless' nothing. That's a huge flaw in the alignment system.
I can boil down that diversity to just one category: characters.
I can agree with this. One category: characters
As in, no 9 alignments.
What really matters is the information provided by the categorization, you're extending the information carried by alignments to cover the whole character, which is something the rules explicitly don't recommend.
Let me see if I understand what you're saying here:
Alignments don't cover the whole character.
The rules recommend that alignments don't cover the whole character.
Is this what you're saying in that quote? I think that's what I'm reading.
In that case, alignment is useless as a meter by which a character's background / personality is measured.
Creature type,background.....
Really? I must have missed those sub-categories of alignment. Let me go double check...
Nope. Not part of the alignment descriptions. Not part of how alignment interacts with the game mechanics.
Well, you are standing in front of a LE human rogue 20 and a LE 20HD devil.
I swear you'd like to have your "protection from evil" work with both...
I swear you'd like to have either one auto-die, no save for being in your presence.
See how "Like" is irrelevant in this case.
In addition, the detect happy party makes most mysteries impossible to carry out within D&D if the antagonist actually interacts with the party.
"I wonder who killed Professor Plum in the Library with the Candlestick..."
detect
detect
detect
detect
detect
"Well, five people and only one registers as evil. This just got much easier."
lame
My point is that alignment system is not a straitjacket which dramatically hinders the tone of the campaign.
Not being able to understanding each other is none's failure.
Can you see how that might be read to conflict with ...
If the character is coherent with his past actions, he will follow his alignment.
said by you earlier in that post?
Not for role-playing purposes.
Suppose the vampire is g-aligned, then the cleric turns an undead enemy, or use an antiundead spell. same situation
The mechanic ignored by Eberron are just a few ones.
Well, the vampire who controls the silver flame would not agree but, anyway, opposite alignment generally correspond to people who won't have a good relationship anyway.
By the way, using alignments to establish relationship between characters is usually avoidable and a dumb way of playing, except when magic and such are involved, as you pointed out, of course.
Of course. And that's one of the knocks against using it in the new edition. It's so good at disrupting story elements, and it's so poor at actually describing characters, that it really deserves to be given the boot. Well, the mechanics that are tied to it anyway.
I have no problem with keeping the non-mechanical aspects of alignment. It's a non-issue in that case.
I have no problem with material that shows how to add it into a system that didn't include it to begin with. It's easy in that case.
I do have a problem with including such a stupid bunch of rules in the base game. It's very hard to remove in that case.
For background I mean the life of your character before being actually roleplayed by you...
uh, and let me add this:
When I play d&d I simply don't care about my life and the concept I have of it, because I'm playing.
I wasn't referring to you. I try to avoid ever doing that, just FYI. I was referring to the character, in case I was misinterpreted.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 4:10PM
#317
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Date Joined:
Mar 23, 2005
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So if I'm not naming names, I'm "inventing" people? Also, if something being easily broken is not a reason to fix it, then why aren't you still playing 3ed, or 1ed, or add with it's ungodly horrible thac0? Every new edition that came out attempted to fix SOMETHING that could be horribly broken (fighter/thief/mage anyone?) and often came with something NEW that could be horribly broken. I would much rather see 4ed without the alignment system, if for no other reason than alignment then becomes a modular ruleset the DM can CHOOSE to implement (along with honor, taint, etc) rather than 5 pages of text spread all over the PHB.
I didn't dispute your elemental statement, I was pointing out the apples/oranges nature of that comparison (although I DO wonder what would happen if you managed to give a cold subtype creature the fire subtype as well...:P )
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 4:15PM
#318
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2005
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I vote please kill alignment. I'm sure my reasons have been expressed by others in the 7 pages of posts I'm not reading.
I agree. Kill it. It always been a fighting point and too many power gamers use to hide the evil they do in the game. If I see one more racist pally....
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 5:58PM
#319
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2002
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If I see one more racist pally....
...you'll ... turn him into
.
wait for it...
.
orc food?
"Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk!"
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6 years ago ::
Sep 12, 2007 - 6:06PM
#320
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2007
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I agree. Kill it. It always been a fighting point and too many power gamers use to hide the evil they do in the game. If I see one more racist pally....
Allegiances, please.
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