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It would probably be more worth your time to consider the suggestions of other RPGs (except of course you've already done one). I would think that even with a point-buy D&D you'd still get some things that it's not set up to do, like play monster races or design your own powers. Of course, YMMV. And if you manage to do a point-buy 4e let the rest of us know. :D

(Let me insert a plug for my favorite d20 point-buy: Mutants & Masterminds from Green Ronin. Sure, it's set up to do Silver Age superheroes, but it wouldn't take too many tweaks to give you D&D, seeing as how D&D is said to be a bit high-powered by default.)

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

It would probably be more worth your time to consider the suggestions of other RPGs (except of course you've already done one).

We in our group have bought so much D&D stuff, know the rules so well...we decided to use D&D so we can use all of our books and ressources.

Naszir wrote:

Still there is no reason that you couldn't have templates made from a classless system that represent your typical archetypes. Those people who want to play with those archetypes can just play off of those templates and character creation is easy. For those who want more flexibility and a more unique character a classless system would work wonders.

A character does not get more unique without a class. You're still bound by what's available in the game world and the genre on one side and the rules system on the other.

I am assuming here you still want to play D&D, just with a point-based character creation.

So, in a point based system, you first assign points to attributes, in GURPS that's around 2/3rds of the points.
In a class system, you use a point-buy method here or roll.

Then, you'd decide the race, getting either the point-buy template or the racial trait package.

Then you pick a class (class system) or decide what your major abilities are where you put the most points (magic, melee combat, thief skills...)

Then, you choose a feat (D&D) / check what advantages you can get for remaining points.

Then, you distribute your skill points / by skills with points.

Then, you use your starting gold and buy equipment / check your starting wealth and buy equipment.

Ok, now you tell me where the character point system revolutionizes character creation. Yes, it surely gives you the illusion of more freedom, but only to either min/max (bad) or create a "unique" character that either does not fit well with the other characters or has strange abilities that don't help with adventuring much.

You see, character point systems do work (GURPS does have 3% market share after all), but they don't inherently support the playing style D&D is too achieve. That is while you will never see classless/levelless/point-buy D&D. It has been done before by other gaming companies, but it was never as much fun and as successful.

Kuroikami wrote:

Fun is inherent in the players, not the system.

Ah, okay. That is always true, of course. With the right gaming buddies, any rules system is great fun!

Naszir wrote:

What happens when I would like to play more of a ruffian type of rogue? You know one that knows how to sneak attack but also can intimidate people with the best of them. He can still pick his fair share of locks but is not the most stealthy of characters. I don't want the extra stuff that comes with playing a multi-class rogue/fighter. This character is never going to wear heavy armor so why can't I just make something that allows me to forego gaining that class bonus and get something else instead?

#1 Unearthed Arcana. Fighter that replaces feats with Sneak attack. That's one way to do it. #2 is just to play the Fighter/Rogue, nobody says you always have to wear heavy armor just because you're proficient with it. #3 is an urban ranger. #4 you could just play a rogue and give him a high Con score, and play him as a thug. Intimidate is a rogue class skill.

Naszir wrote:

Maybe I want to play a character that is a cleric but not a war cleric. Sorry, I don't want to play a druid, I want to play more of a cleric that is not combat ready. How do I go about losing some of those abilities that are inherently part of the class?

Unearthed Arcana. Cloistered Cleric.

The funny thing is that while you demand a point-based, class-less system, your way of thinking is still within the D&D archetypes, or just a little beyond it. The two examples you gave are certainly easy to do with 3.5 ed, we don't even need a 4th edition for that.

With a classless system, you have to think about characters like:

- a bar wench that's secretly a demon cultist
- an old man who's been travelling the realms as a storyteller for ages
- a fifteen-year old stableboy, who's also the heir of a great kingdom as foretold by the prophecy (he just doesn't know it yet)
- a young, rather unsuccessful wizard apprentice, who's been hit by a magic backlash. Whenever he gets angry, he starts shooting powerful white lightning, but he can't quite control that yet.

Now... these 4 are all very interesting characters that a point-buy system is much better at creating than a class system. But now try to imagine the poor DM that has to write an adventure for a party of those four.