Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 1 of 4  •  1 2 3 4 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha
6 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2007 - 7:59PM #1
pmurray@bigpond.com
Date Joined: Oct 2, 2005
Posts: 236
Can someone please fix the primary stats?

Lets take an old man, a jewler, incredibly skilled with his fingers. Dex 17. Why on earth does this old man get a dodge bonus to AC? If strength is general athleticism, then being agile is an aspect of Str, not Dex. Or you can split it into Strength and Agility, if you want.

And Wis/Cha need to be overhauled. Wis seems to mean, variously, what we usually mean by wisdom vs foolishness; and physical awareness of your surroundings. Why should being judicious have anything to do with noticing a footstep?

Cha seems to mean both physical attractiveness, and also your ability to project strength of mind/will (as per what a socerer has).

The only stats that make sense are Int and Con.

Speaking of Con - can we please get rid of the absurd idea of negative hitpoints? I say - hitpoints are a measure of your ability to to go on defending yourself. At 0 hp, you are not unconcious but defenseless. Critical hits do not do extra hp damage, but do constitution damage equal to what is now the crit multiplier of the weapon. If you are defenseless then every hit is an automatic critical. Simple.
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2007 - 10:48PM #2
totoro
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2001
Posts: 175
I've thought about this. I think Flaws would handle this admirably. You can take a high DEX, then take a Flaw reducing the agility aspect of DEX.

I have also advocated splitting WIS into PER (perception) and WIL (willpower), but combining STR and CON. I don't think this will happen, and I don't think you would like it, but you can use flaws and feats to decrease/increase STR in relation to CON.

I agree that CHA has gotten a bit silly in the sense that spells are powered by it. However, I don't really have a problem with the physical attractiveness aspect because a player can decide whether a character is attractive, and we just modify how people treat the character depending upon the CHA score.
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2007 - 11:02PM #3
Von_Harbringer
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 307
They actually had something like this in a book in 2nd edition (name eludes me). They branched each primary stat into two "sub-stats" constitution had stamina and resilience, charisma had comeliness and persuasion. Correct me if I am wrong been about a decade since I saw the book.

Think it was Skills and Powers but not sure...

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2007 - 11:18PM #4
Kaladin
Date Joined: Mar 25, 2001
Posts: 14
The 2 stats that always bothered me (besides CHA) were INT and WIS they almost mean the same thing. I find it strange though, in 3e knowledge based skills were based on INT where it would make more sense to be WIS which to me represents study, past knowledge and experience; where as INT would be more along the lines of being akin to mental agility, and quickly being able to think up solutions. But there are other examples through out previous editions that seem to cross or blur the lines between these two, almost similar terms.

I think from what has been hinted at for 4e that all the classes will benefit from a combination of ability scores (Fighters needing Wisdom, etc.), which will probably lean towards these scores being more realistic in their applications.
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2007 - 11:18PM #5
Komi
Date Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 45

pmurray@bigpond.com wrote:

Can someone please fix the primary stats?

Lets take an old man, a jewler, incredibly skilled with his fingers. Dex 17. Why on earth does this old man get a dodge bonus to AC? If strength is general athleticism, then being agile is an aspect of Str, not Dex. Or you can split it into Strength and Agility, if you want.


I'd say this is modeled by ranks in a skill. The old man might have a poor dex, but his levels in expert have allowed him to offset his old age with years of training.

And Wis/Cha need to be overhauled. Wis seems to mean, variously, what we usually mean by wisdom vs foolishness; and physical awareness of your surroundings. Why should being judicious have anything to do with noticing a footstep?


Again, noticing a footstep in 3.5 comes from the survival skill rather than from Wisdom directly. Untrained people get their natural ability from Wisdom. I think this makes sense since it represents an awareness, whether this is a moral awareness (being judicious) or an environmental awareness (noticing your surroundings).

Cha seems to mean both physical attractiveness, and also your ability to project strength of mind/will (as per what a socerer has).


I like the books definition. It's generally your force of personality. This is, of course, affected by your looks. But your talent at influencing others also plays a great role. But in the end, it's how well you interface with others.

I don't like how this ability is tied to sorcerers. By ability scores, sorcerers should be the most liked people around. Maybe there's a correlation (like marketing majors are probably better at parties than math majors), but it should not be so strongly linked. There should be some shy sorcerers that are still good at casting spells.

The only stats that make sense are Int and Con.

Speaking of Con - can we please get rid of the absurd idea of negative hitpoints? I say - hitpoints are a measure of your ability to to go on defending yourself. At 0 hp, you are not unconcious but defenseless. Critical hits do not do extra hp damage, but do constitution damage equal to what is now the crit multiplier of the weapon. If you are defenseless then every hit is an automatic critical. Simple.


No conceptual problems here. However, from an administrative stand point, I don't want ability damage to be too commonplace. This is hard for a DM to keep track of, especially when running many creatures. D&D has a simplicity that most of the time the only statistic that you need to keep track of is HP. I hope this is preserved.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2007 - 11:21PM #6
Komi
Date Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 45

Von_Harbringer wrote:

They actually had something like this in a book in 2nd edition (name eludes me). They branched each primary stat into two "sub-stats" constitution had stamina and resilience, charisma had comeliness and persuasion. Correct me if I am wrong been about a decade since I saw the book.

Think it was Skills and Powers but not sure...


It was. I thought it was a neat idea, but my group never used it.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2007 - 6:15AM #7
fedos
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 2
After reading this thread, I'm almost glad that WotC doesn't listen to their fan base.

Lets take an old man, a jewler, incredibly skilled with his fingers. Dex 17.


This is a highly unlikely Dexterity score for an elderly jewler. He may have had a 12 or 13 in his younger years, old age has likely brought this down (arthritis, mayhaps?).

Wisdom is your perception and intuition of the world around you, Intelligence is your ability to reason and learn, and Charisma is mostly about your force of personality and attractiveness - how easy is it for you to influence people to see things your way.

Combining Strength and Constitution makes no sense. Think of it this way: would you expect a power lifter to be able to keep up with an endurance runner in a 5K race?

I can't go on, this stuff is bad. This thread shows a lack of understanding of not only the game rules, but the real world of which they are an abstraction.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2007 - 6:16AM #8
mkill
Date Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Posts: 958
With a finite number of ability scores, you can never find a setup that is entirely "realistic". In other game systems, I have seen stats like Perception, Willpower, Magic, Manual Dexterity, Speed, Comeliness, Chi. Luck ... RPGs have been around since 30 years, and you can be sure most combinations you'll come up with have been tried in one or the other way, and no system has proven superior to others, just different.

Changing the ability score setup just opens as many (real or perceived) problems as it closes, and it makes conversion between editions very complicated. Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, it's as good as any other array.

The real trick is to balance each attribute in their in-game usefulness, that's where the work needs to go.

Oh, and for that old man that's a master jeweller, have you considered that it's not his Dex, which might be pretty low, but skill points aquired over a long working life, plus maybe a feat?
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2007 - 6:32AM #9
Bavix
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 43
I agree that traits or flaws can help break down these abilities quite a lot. I pray that 4E adds a flaws system to help add some personality to the characters. Also, I don't think taking a flaw should grant a feat or anything else. People have flaws and hinderances they must overcome.
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Sep 02, 2007 - 10:38AM #10
red_scare87
Date Joined: Nov 25, 2004
Posts: 102

Komi]It was. I thought it was a neat idea, but my group never used it.


Indeed it was Skills and Powers. Seriously, count yourself lucky that you never used it. It was easily the worst thing to happen to 2nd Edition. The same goes for Combat and Tactics and the magic one whose name eludes me for the wrote:

It was. I thought it was a neat idea, but my group never used it.[/quote]
Indeed it was Skills and Powers. Seriously, count yourself lucky that you never used it. It was easily the worst thing to happen to 2nd Edition. The same goes for Combat and Tactics and the magic one whose name eludes me for the moment.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 4  •  1 2 3 4 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing