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Vance vs The World: Using Spell Points in D&D
8 years ago  ::  Sep 07, 2004 - 2:02AM #1
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,907

Vance vs The World: Using Spell Points in D&D

by Matthieu Pierce

In the gaming world, D&D is pretty much the last bastion of its magic system: spell preparation and memorization prior to casting, otherwise known as the Vancian magic system.  The rest of the civilized world has moved on to newer and slicker systems, the most popular of these being the spell point system.  In short, the amount of spells you can cast before recovering is limited to a pool of spell points, which are expended to different degrees depending on the power and efficacy of the spells being cast.  From Diablo to Aberrant, spell/power points are the way to go.  (It’s my opinion that the power point system is one of the primary appeals of psionics in D&D.)

The closest that we have to an official version of a D&D spell point system is the variant spellcasting system presented in Unearthed Arcana (pgs 153-157).  I decided to take a dive into that system (more of a belly flop, really) and see how a character of heroic attributes stacked up to his counterpart with the standard, Player’s Handbook Vancian system.

Even though I’m not much of an optimizer, the system claims that its flexibility makes casters more powerful overall.  Using average daily damage dealt as a rough guide for combat might, I’ve presented the comparative damage dealt by wizards with varied commitments to direct damage-dealing and “utility” spells in the hopes that this analysis will have an application to everyone, twinks and in-depth roleplayers alike.


Test Character: level 9 specialist (evocation) wizard, Int 20.  Such a character would have:
    Spells Per Day:
0: 6 +1
1: 6 +1
2: 5 +1
3: 4 +1
4: 3 +1
5: 2 +1
----OR----
Total Spell Points:  82


The Unearthed Arcana Spell Point System, Bite-Sized:
Spellcasters gain spell points daily in amounts related to their class, level, and pertinent ability modifiers.  Preparation spellcasters prepare a list of spells as usual, from which they can cast any of those spells at the point costs listed below.  Spontaneous casters can cast any known spells.

All spells behave normally, with one major exception: Spells that deal level-dependant damage default to dealing damage as the minimum caster level necessary to cast the spell (ex. 5d6 for a fireball).  Casters may spend 1 point per effective damage-dealing level (ex. 8 total points for an 8d6 fireball).  Other level dependant effects such as range and save DC act as normal.

Unearthed Arcana presents two options for using metamagic: 1) increase the spells’ level and cost as normal (still have to pay extra for damage spells) or 2) Each metamagic feat may be applied to spells 3 time/day at no extra spell point cost (still limited by max level rules, though).  I highy recommend the first option.

Spell Point Costs:
0st: free, 3 +1st level class spell points/day
1st: 1
2nd: 3
3rd: 5
4th: 7
5th: 9

1) Damage Summary—PH Vancian system
(1 utility spell/level, “Frothing pyro”:
1st: 6 magic missiles:  30d4 +30 damage
2nd: 5 scorching rays: 40d6 damage
3rd: 4 fireballs: 36d6 damage
4th:  3 ice storms: 15d6 damage
5th: 2 cones of cold: 18d6 damage
TOTAL: 109d6 +30d4 +30 damage  = 486 avg damage

2) Damage Summary—PH Vancian system (2 utility spells /level, “war mage”
1st: 5 magic missiles: 25d4 +25 damage
2nd: 4 scorching rays: 32d6 damage
3rd: 3 fireballs: 27d6 damage
4th: 2 ice storms: 10d6 damage
5th: 1 cone of cold: 9d6 damage
TOTAL:  78d6 + 25d4 +25 damage = 360 avg. damage

3) Damage Summary—PH Vancian System (a “utility wizard's” damaging spells)
1st: 4 magic missiles: 20d4 +20 damage  (+expeditious retreat +feather fall +grease)
2nd: 3 scorching rays: 24d6  (+glitterdust +blur +shatter)
3rd: 2 fireballs: 18d6   (+arcane sight +dispel magic +fly[/i])
4th: 1 ice storm: 5d6   (+lesser geas +Evards’s black tentacles +shout)
5th: 1 cone of cold: 9d6   (+baleful polymorph +shout)
TOTAL: 56d6 +20d4 +20 damage = 266 avg. damage

4) Damage Summary—Unearthed Arcana Point System (simply the maximum amount of damage)
Available spell points: 82
1st: 1 magic missile: 1d4 +1 1 spell point
5th: 9 cones of cold: 81d6 damage 81 spell points
TOTAL: 81d6 +1d4 +1 damage =  294 avg. damage

5) Unearthed Arcana Point System Point cost estimation of a PHB “utility wizard’s” spell selection (same spell selection as #3)
0: Max 5/day, no cost
1st: (expeditious retreat + feather fall + grease) 3 pts (2 freezing hands) 10 pts (2 magic missiles) 18 pts— 31 spell points
2nd: (3 scorching rays) 21 pts (glitterdust + blur[/i] + shatter) 9 pts— 30 spell points
3rd: (fireball + lightning bolt) 18 pts (arcane sight + fly + dispel magic) 15 pts—33 spell points
4th: (ice storm + lesser geas + Evard’s black tentacles + shout)-- 28 points
5th: (cone of cold + baleful polymorph + teleport)—27 points
TOTAL: 149 spell points 

Note: For the spell point summaries, assume that all damage-dealing spells were spent as level 9 spells (and thus costing more than usual).
Note II: Because the option of "utility" spell use is built into the spell point system, there's no need to tally up alternate spell summaries.

Summary:
    With the Unearthed Arcana spell point system, wizards lose 45% [82 points/149 needed for PH-equivalent spell capacity] of their total spell capacity in exchange for a 10% [266/294] increase in average potential daily damage (when compared to a “utility wizard” spell preparation selection). 

Conclusions:
     The Unearthed Arcana spell point system is roughly worthwhile for spellcasters who currently invest at least 50% of their spell slots in non-damaging spells and consume roughly 55% or less of their resources each day.  The improved efficiency of spell points and the arguable value of scalable damage are relatively valueless for the purpose of damage-value calculation in the face of these calculations.

The selling point for a damage-interested character is the potential increase in the quality of damage (delivery method and energy type) being applied, such as rays in singular-foe situations or ranged burst spells in multiple-foe situations.  Of course, the value of this versatility is directly proportional to the amount of variety in combat situations presented to the character.  Each player will have to consider the diversity of combat presented by their DM and make his own judgment.
   
The second dealbreaker is the drastic reduction in overall spell capacity.  If a character regularly expends more than 60% of his/her spells in a day, this variant puts the character at a significant disadvantage.

Clearly, the Unearthed Arcana spell point system, as it currently stands, is a pretty terrible idea for mages who invest a great majority of their spell slots in damage-dealing spells or for mages who regularly exhaust their daily resources, as they’re far more likely to run out of spells.

Thoughts and Suggested Changes:
On the roleplaying front, the spell point system offered by Unearthed Arcana is a great idea for most campaigns.  Most people, I think, would concede that the Vancian system is goofy and counterintuitive to the modern fantasy roleplayer’s sensibilities.  Alternatively, abstracting spell capacity in the same way that 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons vaguely quantifies hit points seems more natural, and fun to boot—it encourages wizards to prepare an eclectic variety of spells and perhaps even apply them in imaginative game situations.  As for players who would use the system to chuck even more fireballs—first, my estimations above hopefully prove this to be an un-twinkworthy endeavor, and secondly, it’s not like they’ll get any less interesting.

On the player optimization front, the spell point system is a gamble for utility mages (at best) and akin to invading Russia in winter for straight-up battle mages (at worst).  The most irksome issue is the drastic reduction in overall spell capacity.  As a current player in a rough-and-tumble campaign that leaves most party members either crawling home or taking dirt naps on a regular basis, there’s no way that any of our casters would consider downsizing their spell capacity for a bit more flex.

As this is, after all, a variant, I’d like to offer some possible changes to make this tantalizing variant as mechanically tasty as it initially looks.  The biggest problem is the overall spell capacity, and can be solved by a simple increase in daily spell points, allowing for roughly one or two more spells per day.

THE BIG FIX:  Add 30% to the number of spell points per day (round down to the nearest point) to your class’s base spell points per day. 


This may seem like a lot, but because it’s a 30% increase prior to ability bonus modifications and because it’s fighting against an overall 45% spell capacity reduction just for choosing spell points over Vance, it works out just fine.  Characters using the spell point system will still have fewer spells than their Player’s Handbook counterparts, but at least now the flexibility and fun provided by this variant is worthwhile.

If everything goes well, these modified spell pointers will mix and balance well with standard Vancian casters.  Give spell points in D&D a shot.  You won’t want to go back.  It’s like trading in that tired old horse and buggy for a BMW.

Enjoy,

Matthieu Pierce
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 11, 2004 - 12:48AM #2
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,907
Great post. I do have some remarks though:

I like your idea for divine casters, Really REALLY like it al lot. On the arcana side i like it to, but... the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer disappears. I really liked that difference between the artist and the scientist being able to achieve the same things by different means.

Do you have any ideas on how to use spell-point and still make for a different wizard and sorcerer? What about giving the sorcerer more points (like your suggestion) but only a few spells, and giving the wizard less points, but being able to casts all the spells in his spellbook?

Any ideas?
Geek
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2004 - 3:09PM #3
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,907

Spell Point Progression
(fixed)

Clr,
lvl Drd,Wiz Pal,Rgr Brd Sor
1 2 0 0 3
2 5 0 0 5
3 9 0 2 12
4 14 0 6 22
5 20 0 7 28
6 31 1 11 46
7 42 1 18 60
8 57 1 22 70
9 72 2 28 82
10 93 5 37 106
11 114 5 44 122
12 135 11 53 164
13 156 11 65 184
14 176 13 74 234
15 197 22 87 258
16 218 26 105 316
17 239 32 123 344
18 260 36 146 405
19 280 53 172 440
20 301 62 187 470

Okay, here's the actual breakdown of the new spell point progression.

All the classes use the 30% increase in spell points (with some minor tweaks) with the exception of the sorcerer, who uses a compromise between the 30% fix and the directly converted spell point value of their normal Player's Handbook progression. Otherwise, they would be the squeaky little brother of the wizard-- different, but worse in every way.

If you look through the chart, you'll notice that some classes have some significant jumps in points at certain levels, and then seem to languish for a level or so. This is because the spell point system follows the actual progression in power of Player's Handbook spellcasters. For example, the power difference between 5th and 6th level sorcerers is tremendous, mostly because they suddenly get a bucketful of 3rd level spells. So, my spell point progression keeps casters on par with their PH counterparts, at the expense of smooth-flowing power advancement. Ce la vie.
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2004 - 5:13PM #4
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,907
Any calculations on how the spell point UA wizard compare to the power point Psion?
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2004 - 12:08PM #5
caeruleus
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2003
Posts: 753
A good evaluation.

I recall hearing that the amount of spellpoints given in UA were meant to be commensurate with the powerpoints given to psions in 3.0. However, now we have the XPH, which was supposed to make the psion more balanced. On the assumption that it is more balanced, and given that the 3.5 psion has more powerpoints than the 3.0 psion, then it's reasonable to assume that a more balanced spellpoint system, if we want commensurability between magic and psionics, would increase the number of spellpoints per level.

I would just give wizards the same number of spellpoints as 3.5 psions have powerpoints, and increase it slightly for the sorcerer. The question (that I have) is whether this happens to turn out to be roughly a 30% increase. (I don't have my books with me right now.)

On another note, I think the flavor of the Vancian system is perfectly fine. Never having the option of a spellpoint system in D&D was an annoyance, but I've never felt that the Vancian system had a problem. After all, it worked for Jack Vance's novels.
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2004 - 4:46PM #6
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,907
For starters-- thank you, geek and caeruleus, for your thoughtful responses.

Geek: Hopefully, your concerns were answered in my belated "web enhancement" to the original article.

Caeruleus: The 3.5 psion has 343 power points at level 20, compared to the spell point cleric/druid/wizard's 301 spell points at level 20 (using the proposed +30% progression). I think it's worth noting that power points are actually more valuable than spell points-- both systems require that additional points are spent in order to do more damage, but most damage-dealing "augmented" psionic powers also receive a boost in save DC (+1 DC for every additional 2 power points spent), whereas the spell point spellcasters are stuck with the original save DC, regardless of how much they spend. Alltogether, I think the greater number of power points and the comparatively greater value of power points balances with the greater spell versatility afforded to clerics/druids/wizards.

As for the Vancian system, I have no problem with its flavor or even concept; it's a bright and original way of conceiving magic. It's my opinion, however, that it's considerably outside of the mainstream concept of magic, and that many people would be interested in playing a fresh and balanced alternative. In short, it's a pleasant case of good vs. better.
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2004 - 11:59AM #7
wdarkk
Date Joined: Jun 7, 2002
Posts: 77
Yeah, I thought spell points were a gyp looking through UA. These look far more reasonable.
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2004 - 8:42PM #8
Tony_Vargas
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2001
Posts: 7,867
D&D was, indeed, the first, last, and only RPG to use the 'Vancian' system.

However, it can't be abandoned quite that easily. For one, it's become part of the flavor of the game - over the last Thirty Years. That's a fair bit of intellectual inertia to overcome.

For two, there are lots of other games out there that aren't 'Vancian' All of them, in fact. What's to differentiate the venerable D&D if it breaks with it's own tradition and starts imitating it's long-time imitators?

For three, all the spells ever published for the game are balanced around the mechanics of the 'Vancian' system. Preparation (and the not-too-different spontaneous casting of the Sorcerer) severely restricts what spells a caster can bring to bear in any given instance, and how often they can be used. These severe limitations allow D&D spells to be quite potent, without sacrificing game balance. If you look at other systems, you'll find that either their magic isn't nearly as potent on a spell-for-spell basis as D&D (the case, for instance, with GURPS, Hero, TRoS and so forth), or magic simply dominates the game outright (as in Ars Magica or M:tA).

Every alternative I've ever seen (and, in the 24 years since I started playing D&D, I've seen plenty, and made up a few, for that matter), has wildly over-powered casters by letting them cast spells too often or too easily or - and, surprisingly, this is often the worst of all - simply letting them cast the best spell for the situation every time.

Changing the 'Vancian system' would mean scrapping every spell, and by extension, every magic item and spell-like power, ever published for the game and re-building the magic system from the ground up. It would mean creating a new d20 fantasy game that would be D&D in name only. It's not going to happen. At least, I certainly hope it's not going to happen.

That said, nothing stops WotC from publishing a new fantasy d20 game with a less bizarre magic system.
Love 4e?  Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e

"May the 4th be with you." - Adun_Irving

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2004 - 11:06PM #9
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,907
As I already said: I like the idea, and I like this "scientific" way you go about it.

The real problem I have so far, is what do you do with spell selection? The amount of spell points are all very well, but what to spend those on? In my vision of fantasy gaming, Wizard have acces to more spells less often than sorcerers. I would like to keep this, so do you give sorcerers a number of spells known just as they have know? I'd say yes. But...

Do you give Wizards access to all arcane spells? Or, to all spells from their spellbook? Or something else?

My suggestion is giving the wizard a preparation nonetheless. At the beginning of the day the wizard studies his spellbook, and memorizes the spells he think are good for that day. He spends those using spell points, so he could end up memorizing magic missile, fire ball and invisibility, but in the end, spend all his points on magic missile.

The amount of spells he can memorize should be level dependent and less than the amount of spells known for a sorcerer. Due to increased flexibility I am also tempted to decrease it compared to the spells/day a wizard has using the Vancian system.

I might include the option to cast spells right from the spell-book, using spell points, but the casting time would be at least 1 minute, or the normal time, whichever is longer.

What about that?

Geek
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8 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2004 - 6:40PM #10
Nifft
Date Joined: Apr 8, 2003
Posts: 965
IMHO, the 3.5e XPH Psion just needs to have some of his powers renamed to completely replace the Wizard, and the Sorcerer is taken care of by the Wilder.

Spell points or power points, Psions are now hyper-cool.

-- N
Want your forums to look like forums? Use FireFox + Stylish + this Stylish script. UPDATED September 9, 2009.
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