It seems almost everywhere on these boards people carry the implicit assumption that a party of 4 in D&D should include four specific types of PC: one PC each classed into the fighter, cleric, mage, and rogue roles. It's against other classes in the same role that classes are balanced against in the discussions on Classes and Prestige Classes. It's usually expected for a build to fall into one of these four roles when presented on the Character Optimization boards. There's this overwhelming paradigm present that a four person party in Dungeons and Dragons must include a front line melee combat character, a character with trapfinding and sneak attack but less front line capability, a fragile spellcaster with utility and offensive spells, and a more durable spellcaster with healing and support spells.
That irritates me.
It irritates me on a number of levels. First, it irritates me that the game is suggested to be balanced this way. The levels of power the arcane and divine spellcasters can reach, even in Core only, dwarf the capabilities of other classes. Anyone's opinion on balance aside, it is not that hard to see where one of these four roles can be subsumed or made irrelevant by a class or character that's supposed to lie in a different role. Second, it irritates me because it primes, via suggestion, the habit in players to design characters for these roles in a party and only these roles in a party. We can come up with an infinite number of personalities and backgrounds to give life to fascinating characters with...so why should I assume there are only four kinds of approaches my characters should take to adventuring? Third, it irritates me how this creates a fixation on strategies designed solely for this kind of party; usually all variations of "the Fighter guy goes up front, the Rogue tries to flank and sneak attack, the mage stays far from combat and the Cleric moves close to whoever needs healing". Never mind how numerous monsters, in the core monster manual alone, can rip this strategy apart (ignore the fighter and go for the squishies for one). Why should all parties follow strategies in this vein? Boooooooring.
So what do I do with ideas that irritate me? I like to kill them. I can be a bad person in that way; but this particular idea deserves to die.
I would like to extend an invitation to everyone else on these boards to tell me about your (roughly) four person parties that didn't fall into the paradigm of four boxes to organize characters with. I would especially like to hear what innovative tactics and approaches to problem solving you were able to come up with when you built parties this way.
I'll start. Below are descriptions of two parties I have played in, both of which have not toed the traditional four-role line. Included with each are descriptions of two encounters. I've tried to cover challenging encounters, including situations where we were caught at a tactical disadvantage or faced foes well suited to fight us. I've also hoped to demonstrate both in-combat and out-of-combat capabilities. (In case anyone's wondering, these games are currently still going; I play them on OpenRPG)
Based in Eberron, Eclipse Inquisitives is a small private investigation and bounty hunting firm based out of Sharn. We've run around various parts of Eberron in four proper adventure arcs (two of which were the published modules Shadows of the Last War and Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, the rest were homemade) to date and have just started our fifth. Encounters tend towards information gathering, social interaction, and spectacularly violent combat. Here are the party members, with class and prestige class breakdown.
Members Elerosse Tasardur: Elf ranger (using the sublime way variant in my signature) and Revenant Blade At first glance, 'Rosse appears to fit the tank role. He is brutally effective in combat with his double scimitar (specializing in critical hit delivery, as often and as painfully as possible) and has become the party's primary damage dealer in the last few levels. However, he has neither the highest AC nor the largest hit point pool in the party. Secondly, he's also our primary scout with very high Spot and Listen checks. He's actually far more skilled than the tank role expects, capable of handling many infiltration and mobility challenges. He does not try to hold the line either; he deals damage rather than attempt deterrence.
Lehatharath: Kalashtar ardent, recently multiclassed into crusader. Lehatharath seems to straddle the tank and healer roles; he has the highest AC and hit point pool in the party, can become even harder to kill thanks to his Defensive Precognition buff, and carries easy healing with his Touch of Life power. However, he lacks offensive strength in melee compared to Elerosse, Torrin, or Angela's constructs. His healing is also limited and not used in combat except in case of emergencies (in fact, he can only heal his own ability damage at the moment, and not that of others). Most of his offense lies in his mind-affecting powers (two debuffs and the damaging Mind Thrust) making him effectively a heavily armored enchanter in combat. Moreover, he is more skilled than the tank or healer roles suggest. Many ranks in Gather Information and the Urban Tracking feat, combined with a number of information gathering psionic powers and items give him the point position in places where detective work is needed (although he appreciates 'Rosse's significant tracking abilities).
Torrin Ghaladra: Elf monk, ninja, swordsage, and Shadow Sun Ninja Like Elerosse, Torrin appears to fall into one of the four roles, namely the sneak position. He's got sudden strike, heavy Hide and Move Silently ranks, and trapfinding. The catch? He throws himself into combat with less abandon than the more resilient Lehatharath or Elerosse. He does this for two reasons. First is that he has excellent defenses. His AC is good, though not as good as Lehatharath's often is; more importantly, he can call upon invisibility from both his maneuvers and ninja ki abilities. Invisibility can often be a better defense than high AC or HP; it's kept him alive with less HP than the rest of the party. Having incredible saves - the best in the party by far for almost all three - doesn't hurt either. The second reason is that he can flank from any angle (with the Island of Blades stance) and perform combat battlefield control that a fighter type is normally expected to provide (with his Setting Sun maneuvers). On top, his Touch of the Shadow Sun ability allows him to heal allies after damaging enemies. It's not uncommon for Torrin to heal more hit points in a battle than Lehatharath.
Angela Loren d'Ghallanda: Halfling shaper and Astral Zealot Don't let the levels in a caster-role class like the shaper fool you; indirectly, Angela is the party tank. Offensively, she can summon astral constructs, and it's always preferred for the disposable and powerful constructs to take the lead in melee combat than any of the others. Defensively, she is far more resilient than the mage role suggests. Her Fortitude save is as high as her Will save, she often enjoys an better AC than Elerosse, has more HP than Torrin, and she almost always has some damage reduction available from class features and powers. Her toughness means the party can worry less about keeping her safe and more about taking the fight to the foe. She also has excellent social skills and the benefits of Favored in House to solidify her position as party face. Combat Example - Storming the EmbassyShow
In this series of encounters, we had to storm a Riedran embassy in the middle of the night and eliminate three Inspired ambassadors. All of them were NPCs of considerably higher level than the party and well optimized. Each of the Inspired had two shifter warblade bodyguards, and a number of embassy guards (human psychic warriors) were on patrol as well. Torrin and Angela scouted the building out ahead of time and tested it for anti-teleportation measures. Angela was also able to get us a map of the complex with her House connections and social skills. Lehatharath put his investigation skills to work and found out what he could about the Inspired and their defenses ahead of time. On the night of the assault, we Dimension Doored into the embassy kitchen, a spot we knew was undefended, and did a bit more scouting. Turns out the second floor of the embassy, with the bedrooms and all, was protected from teleportation from outside - but not from within the building. We teleported past the human guards and into one of the upstairs bedrooms, employing a Suspended Silence item Lehatharath had bought. In there we found a surprised Inspired ambassador, a human psion NPC with whom she was conversing, and two shifter bodyguards. Lehatharath had the entire party on a mindlink, so they communicated telepathically while we attacked in perfect silence. The unexpected human psion made telepathic contact with Lehatharath before teleporting away; Angela discovered the direction of his escape with Trace Teleport (important plot point). Torrin dropped the Inspired with three poisoned shuriken (sleep poison) and performed a coup de grace on her the next turn. Lehatharath and Elerosse focused on the shifters. Lehatharath confused one with an Id Insinuation before nailing it with a painful Mind Thrust, and Elerosse simply applied his devastating full attacks in Blood in the Water stance. Both shifter bodyguards fell quickly. Unfortunately, the bodyguards kicked the bedroom door open in the fight and the human guards outside noticed what was going on and raised the alarm. We'd also found that these shifters had stronger mental and physical defenses than we anticipated (Warblades with the Moment of Perfect Mind and Stone Bones maneuvers), making them more resilient to Lehatharath's and Elerosse's attacks (they'd fortunately rolled poor, so we rolled over them this time). We moved out to engage the guards in a defensive posture. They'd taken an action to prepare themselves with psionic powers before attacking, and Angela took that time to summon an astral construct behind them. While they dealt with that, she teleported the party into another room, one we knew from the maps had a secret stairway to the first floor. Sneaking downstairs, we found the second Inspired ambassador talking to her shifter bodyguards. Torrin became invisible and moved close to strike her, and then we were exposed to the next unpleasant tactical surprise of the night - she had the Touchsight power active and noticed him immediately. Combat ensued, where Elerosse rushed forward to help Torrin with the shifters. Lehatharath also advanced while Angela started creating another construct, and struck the shifters with a weak mental effect to probe their defenses (and test his theory that they were not infinite). In the meanwhile, the psion moved to feint and attack Lehatharath, but he managed to beat the feint and avoid a potentially devastating sneak attack. This did lead to unpleasant tactical surprise number three: her dagger was a suppression weapon, which dispelled all of Lehatharath's magical defenses and the party mindlink. While Torrin and Elerosse focused on the shifters and brought them down, Angela's astral construct charged and bull rushed the Inspired *through* a dais in the centre of the room, dealing large amounts of damage. The elves finished the two shifters off while Lehath attempted to Mind Thrust the Inspired. Unpleasant tactical surprise number four was that she had used a psionic item to give herself Reddopsi ahead of time, rebounding the Mind Thrust back on Lehatharath; but he had an excellent Will save and wasn't about to get served by his own power. She stabbed the construct with her suppression dagger, dispelling it, but by that time the elves were done with the shifters (with some help from Angela) and had no problem cutting her down (she was badly wounded at this point). We were looting their bodies and healing those wounds when the third Inspired arrived. This time, our enemy was not caught by surprise. 'Rosse moved to engage the shifters while Torrin went after the Inspired. A shifter attacked Lehatharath, who stepped back out of range and reestablished his Defensive Precognition power (granting a bonus to AC and saves). This unwittingly saved his life after the Inspired dropped a devastating Energy Missile power on Lehatharath and Angela. This Inspired was apparently a specialist at such powers; it did so much damage that the partially wounded Lehatharath was knocked to under 0 hp even after making his save. Angela made her save too, in thanks to having cover from the rubble left after her construct had destroyed the dais in the centre of the room. She was creating an astral construct at the time; by expending her psionic focus she was able to concentrate on the power and created a massive construct with grappling and poison abilities. While it started to chew on the Inspired, she fed a potion to Lehatharath, bringing him back. Torrin moved in to attack the grappled Inspired, and we were treated to our last unpleasant surprise of the night - there was a Share Pain effect diverting half the damage the Inspired would take to his shifter bodyguards. It kept him alive longer, although the transferred damage was enough to kill a wounded shifter (the other one was taken down by 'Rosse next turn). The Inspired blasted the construct with a powerful energy missile in an attempt to escape, but the construct was too tough and didn't fall. Torrin then drained the last of the Inspired's life away with his Touch of the Shadow Sun, and the mission was completed.
Combat and Noncombat Example - The Bloodied TavernShow
In this encounter, we were arriving into a new town with a Kalashtar NPC who was assisting the party; he stayed behind at first, however. We were passing a tavern when we heard a commotion and saw three brigands burst out with bloodied weapons - a dwarf wielding magic wands, a robed warforged, and a female human in Cyrran armor. We were about to give chase when an invisible mage somewhere drew our attention with a line of verbal spell components - and then an Evard's Black Tentacles spell. That trapped the party down. None of us were able to escape, but Angela was able to trap the three we could see in an Ectoplasmic Wall. This did not last long; the human warrior burst out with a strength check while the warforged (apparently a warlock) followed and blasted Lehatharath and Torrin with an eldritch chain; Lehatharath was hit but Torrin managed to dodge it even when grappled. Elerosse eliminated the magical effect with an Iron Heart Surge (we use the RAW ruling that it dispels area effects) and started to move forward. Then the invisible mage dropped a Solid Fog on us. Torrin went invisible and then Shadow Jaunted out of the fog. Angela then hit both the fog and the invisible mage (located through scent thanks to Elerosse' Hunter's Sense stance) with an area dispel. This removed the fog and knocked out the mage's invisibility, but not the Flight that kept her airborne. As the half elf mage became visible, the warforged warlock also flew into the air and activated an invocation that allowed him to see and locate Torrin for her. The human warrior ran past the invisible Torrin, shrugging off an attack of opportunity. Lehatharath ran to the tavern door to check on possible survivors, and unfortunately found a bloodied scene without any visible at first. As Elerosse moved into position, the half elf mage vanished with a Dimension Door. Torrin stabbed the human warrior with the suppression dagger we'd taken off of the second Inspired mentioned above. This dispelled her magic items temporarily, and she turned to fight. Angela then successfully trapped the flying warforged in an ectoplasmic cocoon, sending it falling to earth. As the Cyrran woman turned to attack Torrin, the dwarf everyone had forgot about made his presence known by blasting the cocoon with a scorching ray. This freed the warforged, who vanished with a Flee the Scene invocation. The dwarf had been hiding in the shell of Angela's Ectoplasmic Wall the whole time. Lehatharath raced to help Torrin with the Cyrran while 'Rosse searched for the dwarf - who was invisible - by scent. Torrin laid into the Cyrran with a full attack, but that didn't hurt her much. She responded by dropping her disguise - the human was actually a transformed rakshasa, and she laid into Torrin with a painful full attack. At this point, however, Lehatharath was close enough to get close and whack her with a Mountain Hammer, ignoring her DR and dealing some good damage. He then used White Raven Tactics to give Torrin an advance turn, which Torrin used to go invisible and send the demon to the ground with a Mighty Throw. Elerosse moved up to the rakshasa at this point, having found the dwarf was gone, and whacks her with two nasty strikes - that don't penetrate the damage reduction at all. The attacks of opportunity Torrin and Lehatharath make as it stands do little damage as well. The Rakshasa drained some life from Lehatharath with a Vampiric Touch. Lehatharath struck her in response with a combination of maneuvers that denied her ability to make attacks of opportunity and gave him an attack of opportunity if she attacked anyone else. Torrin then blinded her with a Shadow Sun Ninja ability and drained her life in turn with Touch of the Shadow Sun. At this point the other NPC on our side arrived. Kanatash is a kalashtar soulknife/monk, a skilled and mobile fighter at both close quarters and long range. Angela had handed him a potion of fly and he took off towards the fight. Elerosse tore into the Rakshasa with a full attack, but managed to make little headway against its DR. The demon attacked Lehath but missed in her blindness. Angela then created an astral construct which tripped the demon. Lehatharath attacked the demon twice, dealing a little damage, and then Torrin healed Lehatharath and went invisible once more before full attacking the demon to little effect. Elerosse decides to spend this turn charging up his Combat Rhythm technique for a large bonus to attack next round, so he could steamroller the monster's damage reduction completely. Kanatash reached the fight scene, and we find that his soulknife is enchanted to beat the monster's damage reduction. She responded with a vicious full attack, forcing Lehath to do some emergency healing to give Kanatash a chance. The construct tripped her again, and then Torrin struck her with a Touch of the Shadow Sun. That, being negative energy damage, bypasses DR and was enough to finally drop the beast. With one of the brigands dead and the rest fled, we had to examine the crime scene. Lehatharath and Torrin went over the carnage, helping some survivors and finding clues with gloves of Object Reading and Lehatharath's Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions power (which revealed lots of useful plot information). Angela spoke with witnesses and the local sherriff, while Elerosse tracked the scent of the brigands backwards. They had escaped by teleportation, but they entered the tavern in the first place by foot - the trail Elerosse found was our best lead.
I'd like to thank Tempest for helping me put together these character descriptions. The name of the game comes from character creation, when one too many jokes about Chrono Trigger led to the creation of a team where each member reflects a specific, single, almost elemental theme (indicated below). It's set in a custom world, which by most games' standards would be considered high-magic (or at least higher-magic, especially in the movers and the shakers). The team was originally a small security company from an oppressive magocracy who hired two renegade bodyguards from the nation the magocracy is currently at war at. At the time, the goal was to escape the magocracy's iron fist; it seems like this is within the team's grasp right now. Every adventure has been homebrew, with a serious focus on intrigue, character development, timing, and magic. Lots and lots of magic. Combat, when it happens, is often off the hook in that the team works as one, devising carefully timed teamwork attacks that serve to overwhelm the opposition.
Liam Cross (Water): Human Swordsage, Shadow Sun Ninja, and Warblade With a class breakdown like that, Liam looks like a mobile heavy hitter, something more like a skirmishing monk. In truth, he is rather monklike in that he prefers to fight unarmed, but that's about where the similarities end (especially since he just got himself a shiny new spiked chain). This fellow is the TANK. He's impossibly hard to hit (and his default battle stance, Pearl of Black Doubt, amps his AC every time he's missed). He packs a lot of counters. He uses Setting Sun judiciously to relocate the enemy, often over cliffs, in pits, or in lakes. He tanks by forcing the opponent to deal with him -- or end up somewhere where they will be unable to strike their targets. It's a sort of active defense, one might say. However, tanking is not the limit of his abilities by far. Like Torrin in Eclipse Inquisitives, he's able to provide vital in-combat healing with Touch of the Shadow Sun. He's also an excellent scout with Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen checks of an impressive caliber, and a Sense Motive check that gives him a lie detector role in social situations.
Ethan Cross (Fire): Human Swordsage Of all the characters in this game, Ethan's the closest to a stock party role -- but it isn't the melee skirmisher you'd expect from the monk-like swordsage. Ethan's a Desert Wind specialist, and really plays the swordsage more like a melee warmage. We're at the level where direct damage is beginning to wear out as an effective trick. In the meantime, though, he's been dishing out serious damage -- overwhelming amounts of it, mostly fire-based -- while demonstrating Desert Wind and Tiger Claw's great mobility options to boot (along with a few, but not many, Stone Dragon defenses). His defense is seriously lacking (his AC and HP are respectable, but nothing special for the level he's at), and his attacks are rather one-dimensional -- these would be serious impediments to his style, were it not for two other things: Liam, and Dayvid. Liam often provides defensive cover for Ethan's offensive punch, and Dayvid's battlefield manipulation enables Ethan to focus on whatever targets he needs to. (Besides, Dayvid typically packs Transposition spells, just in case Ethan bites off more than he can chew.) Ethan is extremely versatile in the manner in which he delivers damage, with ranged single shots, area effects at melee range, the multitargeting Firesnake maneuver, several charge-based maneuvers and a devastating full attack after bonuses from the Blood in the Water stance and a Desert Wind boost have been applied. He's also got Jump and Tumble to move where he's needed, very handy for giving Dayvid options with those Transpositions. A nice Sense Motive helps him do lie detection like his brother, and can assist in 'coercion' encounters with his Intimidate skill.
Xek (Mirrors): Changeling psychic rogue (Mind's Eye), Chameleon Xek is an infiltration specialist, as the rogue core might suggest. However, that's where the similarity ends -- Xek has Persona Immersion, and is played in an interesting way which maps different forms to different Chameleon specialities. One day, Xek may be in the form of Ikaros, a charming rogue in every sense of the term with a touch of arcane trickery up his sleeve. The next, she may be Shevitha, a xeph acrobat with a healing gift and an almost childlike innocence about her. On another day, she may be Carlak, a mogrelfolk warrior with a "hold the line" infantryman attitude and a mean glaive at his side. At the moment, circumstances in-game prevent controlled switching (you'll know why if and when I'm bugged into providing RP summaries for these characters), but it still allows the "rogue" of the party to handle herself in melee without too much difficulty *and* provide some spell support. Simply put, a Chameleon fits whatever role they feel like at the moment.
Dayvid Thales Dalawann: (Smoke) Gnome Illusionist / Shadow Adept / Geometer / Shadowcraft Mage Yeah, he does fit the bill as far as a wizard goes. The difference? He's banned Evocation and Necromancy, and has zero ranks in Concentration, and yet it has been his contributions to the game that often secure victory for the team. Proper application of enchantment and illlusion lead to enemies being confused out of their wits, debilitated, sealed off from combat, or worse. Furthermore, Dayvid's a skilled liar and manipluator, quite capable at leading people on even without magic if he needs to, while still providing the party knowledge base. Dayvid also has untold versatility as a vancian wizard: he's able to use shadow magic and various spells to mimic the effect of other spells on a spontaneous basis. The normal drawbacks of shadow illusions are mitigated (and in a few levels, will be completely reversed once he starts casting shadow spells more real than the real thing!). Despite his low defenses (I don't think his AC's ever beat 11), he has been hit *twice* in the entire campaign to this date. He's also as likely to spend a round cleaning his nails as casting a spell, given how many combats he's reduced to waiting for the foes to succumb to his powerful lasting battlefield control effects. Blasting and worrying about preparation is for suckers - Dayvid's options are so versatile he's practically a role unto himself.
I'd like to weigh in by saying that I'm in both of these games with RT right now, and this post came out of a bit of a discussion we were having. We share identical opinions on the archetypal party-of-four approach, in that it's a reasonably effective spread of abilities but stifling, both creatively and tactically. I noted this especially when teaching the game to a bunch of new people -- every single one of them had a brilliant character idea, but not one fell into the classic four-roles paradigm (most were hybrids in some way, shape, or form -- expressed mechanically, they would typically be duskblades, favored souls, druids, or psychic warriors). I look forward to seeing some other examples of busting the 4-role-box.
I'm especially interested in two types of encounters for such parties -- ones where you "shouldn't be alive" so to speak (hard encounters that typically need a balanced approach to defeat, but your group emerged victorious) and encounters where you had a "flawless victory" (where your unusual makeup led to a remarkably easy fight where the classic 4-man team wouldn't have). Of particular interest to me are TACTICS -- RT mentioned above the stereotypical "fighter holds line, rogue flanks, wizard stays back and casts, cleric defends and heals" approach... which I, personally, find both boring and unsatisfying to play (my characters tend to make use of the environment and unconventional application of magic). I'd love to hear what innovative tactics your nonstandard team makeup has produced as well, especially if it's dynamic and novel.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
I have very rarely actually seen the 4 class setup. Most 4 man grousp I've been in have involved either a cleric, rogue and 2 fighters (or some basic variation with non-core classes), or cleric, rogue and 2 casters.
My favorite group, though, was 4 clerics. Each focused on something different: we had a heal-bot, a melee monster, a buff-monkey and another that acted as a "face."
Tiefling Knight 3 (ECL4) Fire Genasi Ranger 3 (ECL 4) Aasimar Cleric of Chauntea 2 (ECL 3)
As you can see, the party lacks an arcane caster altogether, and this cleric is the first one to be played in our group in quite a while. Notice that all the players chose planetouched, however. The Knights player enjoys trying to overcome evil stereotypes (although he hasn't done drow yet), the Fire Genasi is a pyro in RL, and the Aasimar fit the clerics design, with that players concept created before race and class were selected.
Currently, we are playing a campaign that should have 4 players, but one is more or less absent, our cleric.
I am the Rogue/Sorcerer (multiclassed for goodness) We also have a twf crit freak and a strength dependant barbarian.
What we should have is a cleric, not your normal cleric, but a necromancer summoner. Sadly, he (or she if refering to the player), has not been around much. This leaves us where we had been the entire campaign, without a healer. And we do just fine.
My favorite group, though, was 4 clerics. Each focused on something different: we had a heal-bot, a melee monster, a buff-monkey and another that acted as a "face."
But, see! You are taking four clerics and jamming them into the 4 boxes. Why not four heal-bots? Why not four High Priest types?
I dream of running a party of all rogue types. That would be fun, challenging, and OUTSIDE the boxes. But alas, the players don't want to be sneaky...
My group played this party for years and it was wonderful. All four party members rush the opponent down mercilessly, tripping and sneak attacking anything in its way into oblivion. At level 10 the addition of oppurtunist to the Rogues just sealed things up.
I mean, I know it doesn't sound very innovative or anything, but considering how reliant most groups are on spells, it is friggin' brilliant in its own way. The characters were designed to win initiative and/or get surprise rounds so that the opponent would be dead or running before they could use any good abilities. The party could outpace any monster that relied on HP damage and save-or-screwed effects mean little when there is so much redundancy between party members (Man you paralyzed the rogue. Good thing we have a spare!). A few restorative and buffing items and a careful eye towards which commissions they selected and they were tight.
Really, this group convinced me that spellcasters just aren't that fun. When you can't just bypass everything anything you want as a standard action the game is cooler.
Another really funny party was Fighter, Wizard, Wizard, Nymph. Both of the wizards focused on control spells, with one favoring summons and the other favoring defensive stuff. Basically, this party was the exact opposite (even though the fighter in this party was one of the fighers in the other party) of the other. They simply did not so any damage, instead completely looking up the fight with stunning gaze, acid fog, wall of ________, trips, summoned elementals, etc. while slowly chipping the opponent away. Every combat took a long time to resolve, but usually it was a forgone conclusion early on. The opponents would get seperated and stalled while the fighter individually pounded them. For a powerful single opponent would be subjected to repeated save-or-abilities from behind barriers of spell created obstacles and the fighter. Probably the most "professional" party I'd ever been in, from the perspective that they always were able to solve every encounter they faced with a clear, efficient strategy that was often ad-libbed and always effective.
It also helped convinve me that the game is less fun with two wizards, because you really, really always have a solution to every problem as a standard action, even when both wizards are intentionally limiting their spell lists for thematic and balance concerns.
The second example party will be finished sometime later. I'd like to hear more about real examples from others, particularly with details (as Tempest pointed out). I'm interested in the specific encounters the less conventional parties shined in.
But, see! You are taking four clerics and jamming them into the 4 boxes. Why not four heal-bots? Why not four High Priest types?
EXACTLY.
To borrow a Final Fantasy metaphor, this isn't like going Redmage/Redmage/Redmage/Redmage. It isn't asking if you managed to get the old four-role team using different classes. This is more like asking if anyone's gone Whitemage/Whitemage/Thief/Blackbelt, or somthing else equally off-the-wall, to see if the old four-role team is even valid.
As I said, I'm most interested in tactics and actual-game examples if possible. Follow RT's format if you can. Ongorth's isn't bad either -- I especially like what I see in the second party (though I question how the first one would have handled something like a flyer or anything that targets a will save), in that it worked on its strengths, targeted opponent weaknesses, and, above all else, was fun to play.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
As I said, I'm most interested in tactics and actual-game examples if possible. Follow RT's format if you can. Ongorth's isn't bad either -- I especially like what I see in the second party (though I question how the first one would have handled something like a flyer or anything that targets a will save), in that it worked on its strengths, targeted opponent weaknesses, and, above all else, was fun to play.
If I have time, I can post full details including example combats, but thats a lot of work for no reward.
Like I mentioned briefly with the first party, they were very careful with what commissions they took. If there wasn't a low ceiling, they wouldn't take the commission! The will save thing is less of an issue. The king of the mass will save targetting effects (Mind Flayers) are super brittle and there best defense (SR) is entirely irrelevant. Otherwise, most parties have one or two people with weak will saves that are going to be hosed anyway, at least in this party the vunerible person was never going to be the "vital link".
But, seriously, the second party absolutely controlled combats. I remember one encounter involved them getting surrounded and ambushed by a group of Gythanki bandits on a barren stretch of an unfamiliar plane with the only terrain feature being the Mercenary and Pacifist Sphinx that they were riding who decided to take a nap when the action started. Being surrounded by enemies (two of which had ninja levels which we all know are deadly against wizards who haven't got detect invisible up!) would seem to be a tricky encounter, especially with no walls to use blocking out enemies. But the party quickly readjusted to the situation, rushed one side of the fight, disabling as many as possible before covering themselves with solid fog to prevent retaliation. The enemies wanted to avoid clumping together, so they kept spread apart while the party "fog cloud jumped" attacking one or two at a time before going after another. At one point in the fight every single Gith was stunned, held or tripped and there was at least 8 of them. In fact, the party only ended up killing one of them when the Nymph cdged one of the held opponents. She felt really guilty about that, particularly her player after I mercilessly added three minutes of gory details to the "Merciless display of cruelty". Good times.
