# Community

Flag October 29, 2007 10:49 AM PDT
Yes, there was: OW4 said he'd change it if he updated the paladin at all, which he didn't.
Flag October 29, 2007 4:08 PM PDT

I've examined Otto's medium save system (2/5xlevel+1) and while it works well enough, it staggers oddly. I prefer 5/12(level)+1 because it's mathematically exactly between the default high and low saves. It only has one flaw in the progression, as shown below:

Neat.

Though I didn't realize that was the formula I was using. I just went with the average of the high save & low save, rounded down. I know it staggers oddly, but I just decided to stay with the simplicity of that method rather than trying to figure out some other formula.

Flag October 31, 2007 11:12 AM PDT
Heh. You know, I got so caught up in by-level formulas that I completely failed to realize that it was also the average of the high and low saves.

For reference, the high save is 1/2(level)+2 and the low save is 1/3(level). 5/12(level)+1 is exactly between the two equations before rounding, which sometimes results in the decimals adding up so that it gets an increase earlier than you would simply averaging the rounded-down results of the other two.

Flamewarrior wrote:

Yes, there was: OW4 said he'd change it if he updated the paladin at all, which he didn't.

I'm wondering if I should go ahead and place confirmed changes in the .pdf version. I don't want to do it without the creator's say-so, though.

Flag November 19, 2007 8:16 AM PST
Wow. Here's something funny.

I've been on EN World off on and for years, and three days ago found a link to this paladin build. Having little else to do, I proceeded to read the entire 28 page board. Including all the time I took to write down various extras, variants, feats and such, as well as make a few tweaks of my own to the class, it's come out to something like 14 hours of reading or so. Now imagine my utter dismay to find that this board is pretty much slowing down to a halt. I have nothing against it, just frustrating I didn't get any input in 20 or so pages ago. Oh well.

I'm not familiar with the ToB, but like I said, I've read every post and there has been plenty of evidence supporting this as a well balanced class, which excels at what it is meant to do. The specializations are brilliant. I'll make a few tweaks and spell changes to suit my own taste (really just remove heroes' feast, I guess, could work in a certain flavor but doesn't really fit with everything else), but other than that, you (OW4) and Seerow have done a fantastic job.

I wanna thank you for putting the info back up even after the whole wizards "we can take stuff" clause thing, otherwise I would probably never play a paladin again. Know that your kindness does not go unnoticed. It's a shame people are getting apathetic about 3.5 seeing as how 4th is out next year, but in my opinion it's still like 8 months away for just the core books. Still plenty of time for new ideas and the like.

Anyways, thanks again, this is the kinda stuff that renews my faith in humanity.
Flag November 22, 2007 10:55 PM PST

King-Panda wrote:

...this is the kinda stuff that renews my faith in humanity.

You too?

Flag November 23, 2007 9:23 AM PST
I am truly impressed by your hardwork, collaborative efforts, your end result and presentation. The use of artwork to exemplify the feel and description you wanted to capture blew me away!

Well done!
Flag November 24, 2007 8:09 AM PST
I have learned that OneWinged4ngel is having login troubles. I'm trying to help him through as best I can, since all the WotC staff will do is direct him to an (apparently) unresponsive tech support page. Hopefully he'll be able to get his account migrated soon. Just letting you know why he hasn't been around.
Flag November 24, 2007 8:22 AM PST
That's at least the second time he's had trouble with these boards. Previously, he got banned for something that, apparently, someone else said. There is more than one OneWingedAngel, or variants thereof, on the boards. Let's hope the same thing didn't happen again.
Flag November 24, 2007 8:27 AM PST
It wasn't a ban as far as I can determine; he just didn't find out how to migrate his account. Either that, or the migration form didn't work for him; it wasn't clear which it was. Either way, he couldn't log in anymore when the boards were shifted over to Gleemax.
Flag November 24, 2007 9:52 AM PST
Well, good that it wasn't a ban...

Major suckage that he can't seem to get any help from the tech "support" team. And now a long holiday weekend to boot.
Flag December 8, 2007 5:55 AM PST
Never mind.
Flag December 21, 2007 11:28 AM PST
Hey. Tech Support finally cleared up the Gleemax issue. So I'm back.
Flag December 21, 2007 11:40 AM PST
WOOHOO!!

Welcome back, OW4!

(thinly disguised bump)
Flag December 21, 2007 11:43 AM PST
Apparently, gleemax doesn't bump things anymore when you reply... or there's some sort of delay glitch...
Flag December 21, 2007 1:57 PM PST

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

Apparently, gleemax doesn't bump things anymore when you reply... or there's some sort of delay glitch...

Probably some sort of delay. Welcome back, still!

Flag December 22, 2007 12:37 AM PST
I hate to pry, but as long as you're back...

:P
Flag December 30, 2007 5:16 AM PST
I hope this suggestion arrives, seen as it's a populair thread...

I was thinking you could make the Divine Wall ability of the Argent Bastion somewhat more effective, because hiding behind the paladin in a line just seems like something not worth a 1 round effort.

If you mirror a cone behind the paladin, 30 feet long I suppose would be valid, anyone caught in the cone that comes from the paladin's back would be covered.

Perhaps overpowered, but only a suggestion. A line just didn't seem that much to me.
Flag December 30, 2007 1:25 PM PST
Changes from the never-released update:
-4+int skill points
-Cover altered to make you the new target for an attack, rather than diverting one attack.
-Lay on Hands wouldn't scale twice based on Charisma; it would have a straight progression of number of times per day.
-Divine Wall would have the added benefit of switching Cover to a free action, and the added stipulation that it blocks line of effect only for enemies, not allies.
-Turn Undead gains a penalty like it did before.
-Vindication would make a creature become temporarily corporeal, and subject to critical hits and sneak attacks.
-Hero's Courage gives a slight bonus to Duel of Wills (See Tome of Battle) checks.
-Vigilance gives a slight bonus to Sense Motive.
-Inspiration adds the stipulation that even if an ability is modified to 2/round, the same check cannot be rerolled twice.
-Charging Smite modified so that misses still waste a smite attempt, and that instead of using one double-strength smite, it may instead use two smites at once, and that the basic smite stacks its damage bonus. This allows for combinations such as a vindication strike that also deals smite bonus damage. This also means that Charging Smite blows *two* smites per encounter. Special effects are added for a "charging smite" use of various smite feats that otherwise seem rather incompatible.
-Aura of Devotion altered to make allies more "steadfast" instead of simply harder to hit, fortifying them against special maneuvers such as disarm, bull rush, trip, and any ability that would cause them to move against their will or fall prone. Iffy on that one.

At least, I think that was all of 'em. For those who are curious and keep sending me email about it >_>

Edit: Oh! And I forgot. Since I changed it significantly from the original (which I can't reprint, legally) and nerfed it (double smite damage as opposed to triple) I was going to add more tiers for it in, and write the description for the charging smite in instead of referencing. I don't remember what I gave it though...

I believe it mirrored Argent Bastion. A feat, a special ability (Chargin' smite), a feat again, a special ability again. I don't remember though.
Flag December 30, 2007 2:13 PM PST
Glad you're back OneWinged4ngel!, we still have yet to discuss all the weapon style stuff on that other thread.

Although I thought you had left these boards on the fact of the copyright issues that they added to CoC, and had enforced before they added it. So are you truly coming back?

Also it's been a bit since I asked you this already, what is your current standing on 4th edition? Assuming you have read up a bit on whats going down.

Divine wall is being changed to cover? I'm guessing the line of sight ability is a bit too on the powerful side? Although I doubt that, seeing how it's your final shield ability, so it should be mighty.

Lay on hands seems fine to me, what need is there for a change?

I'm still for Chimaera2000's Variant Aggressive Specialization for the offensive specialization. As it seems to be more than just charging.

Aura of Devotion sounds to me it is to go through a process making it more useful tactically, sounds like a good thing to me.
Flag December 30, 2007 2:21 PM PST

Aryxbez wrote:

So are you truly coming back?

Yeah, but I don't think I'll be posting material here unless I publish it under a license like the OGL.

Also it's been a bit since I asked you this already, what is your current standing on 4th edition? Assuming you have read up a bit on whats going down.

Standing? As in, for it or against it? Well, I'll wait and see. I'll probably buy it, and I'm rather enthusiastic about some of the features I've seen and rather worried that WotC will **** up on some others. Actually, it looks like they're taking smite feats for 4th ed, though with the obvious next step (making them choosable abilities like maneuvers instead of feats, which is pretty much exactly what I would have done if I wasn't pushing for the "straight adaptation to 3e base template and leaving anything particularly new like various smites completely optional" thing) implemented.

In any case, it's what everyone else is going to be playing, so I'll be switching to it and I'll be playing it and I'll be houseruling for it. Heck, that's the very same reason I started playing D&D... you could attract more new players with it. That, and I fell in love with the Eberron setting, which was made for D&D.

Divine wall is being changed to cover? I'm guessing the line of sight ability is a bit too on the powerful side? Although I doubt that, seeing how it's your final shield ability, so it should be mighty.

CHANGED? No no no, you misunderstand. It modifies cover *IN ADDITION* to blocking line of effect as it already does. Oh, and I also added the stipulation that it only blocks line of effect *for your enemies.*

Lay on hands seems fine to me, what need is there for a change?

Double Cha scaling. It scales up by Charisma *squared.* That's a design flaw for all the obvious reasons (see my "Philosophy of Class Design" post. I violated my own rule, though admittedly only after receiving pressure from the public. Basically, I'm going back to the original level-scaling model.)

Flag December 30, 2007 4:37 PM PST
Good to know about Divine wall then, also to hear that you're actually back.

So you joined D&D due to social inclination, and to get more buddies? I merely joined this game as I was introduced to it at an early age, and apparently have a like for roleplaying.

Anyway on the Aggressive, I favor it mostly as it's abilities aren't that bad and it's not charging. Although I picture Paladins charging his enemies at battlefields, I don't think it should be one of their main abilities. Otherwise you got a nice idea I think, so do they have to be two different ones, or could one just smite two normal ones for bigger damage?

Also do you have a time when you plan on updating these?

Another thing, I'm surprised you're still interested in updating things, as I thought you lost interest in everything once the news of 4th edition hit. Another thing, it looks to me you removed your sig, to what reason?
Flag December 30, 2007 4:40 PM PST

Aryxbez wrote:

So you joined D&D due to social inclination, and to get more buddies? I merely joined this game as I was introduced to it at an early age, and apparently have a like for roleplaying.

I already played RPGs, and D&D has a rather unattractive and flawed mechanical system. The reason to play it over alternative choices was that more people played it, and that Eberron was designed for it.

Another thing, I'm surprised you're still interested in updating things. I thought you lost interest in everything once the news of 4th edition hit.

Pretty much. Why do you suddenly have the mistaken impression that things changed? I had the update done (up to a point) a significantly long time ago, I just never posted it. But people kept sending me emails and IMs and stuff about it and the Blackguard...

Aryxbez wrote:

Also do you have a time when you plan on updating these?

No.

Another thing, it looks to me you removed your sig, to what reason?

Well, the links are all outdated and stuff. I need to fix it.

Aryxbez wrote:

so do they have to be two different ones, or could one just smite two normal ones for bigger damage?

-Charging Smite modified so that misses still waste a smite attempt, and that instead of using one double-strength smite, it may instead use two smites at once, and that the basic smite stacks its damage bonus. This allows for combinations such as a vindication strike that also deals smite bonus damage. This also means that Charging Smite blows *two* smites per encounter. Special effects are added for a "charging smite" use of various smite feats that otherwise seem rather incompatible.

That means that that it can double your normal smite damage.

Edit: Oh! And I forgot. Since I changed it significantly from the original (which I can't reprint, legally) and nerfed it (double smite damage as opposed to triple) I was going to add more tiers for it in, and write the description for the charging smite in instead of referencing. I don't remember what I gave it though...

I believe it mirrored Argent Bastion. A feat, a special ability (Chargin' smite), a feat again, a special ability again. I don't remember though.

Flag December 30, 2007 5:16 PM PST

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

I already played RPGs, and D&D has a rather unattractive and flawed mechanical system. The reason to play it over alternative choices was that more people played it, and that Eberron was designed for it.

I would like to know which ones, although I'm already aware you played Rokugan (I have too, also play the card game, Nezumi rule!). Also what was so unattractive of D&D? I understand that High levels be unbalanced, Swag dependency perhaps?

Pretty much. Why do you suddenly have the mistaken impression that things changed? I had the update done (up to a point) a long time ago, I just never posted it. But people kept sending me emails and IMs and stuff about it...

I thought those things you listed were going be finally updated here, as you had said, they are updates that weren't shown. Well whether you truly post these updates or not is up to you, I go either way on it.

The links don't go anywhere anymore?

Well maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see you signature which has links anywhere, I checked your profile, which your sig should be under what games you say symbols. Which it to my eyes, is not there. I know my sig is present, I just can't seem to see yours.

It would be more expedient if you read the answers off of the post, instead of me needing to respond and quote with... exactly the explanation I already gave.

I do apologize, sometimes I guess I skip things when reading. I'll be sure to next time read something before asking.

Flag December 30, 2007 5:22 PM PST

Aryxbez wrote:

Well maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see you signature which has links anywhere, I checked your profile, which your sig should be under what games you say symbols. Which it to my eyes, is not there. I know my sig is present, I just can't seem to see yours.

... I mean that I deleted it because the links didn't go anywhere anymore.

Flag December 30, 2007 5:31 PM PST

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

... I mean that I deleted it because the links didn't go anywhere anymore.

Oh, the question mark threw me off, Also you had quotes in your sig, I guess you got tired of those as well?

Also I recalled you were requesting players online a long time ago. I'm guessing you got players and all that.

Flag December 30, 2007 6:12 PM PST
Me tooo, I have to say, I would tap that.
Flag December 30, 2007 6:40 PM PST

Aryxbez wrote:

Oh, the question mark threw me off, Also you had quotes in your sig, I guess you got tired of those as well?

I'll put in quotes again when I make my new sig. Yeesh.

Also I recalled you were requesting players online a long time ago. I'm guessing you got players and all that.

I did. That game was done recruiting several months ago. I just forgot to take that out of my sig...

Though, I'm actually looking for players for ANOTHER online game by now. :P

mcwood wrote:

Me tooo, I have to say, I would tap that.

Uhm, well if anyone's interested in an Eberron campaign, my AIM address is right there, in my profile. As it always has been. It's the fastest, easiest, and best way to reach me. And if you don't have AIM, you can download and install it for free in a minute flat, not to mention that my gmail and MSN address are also in my profile...

Flag January 2, 2008 8:58 AM PST
Thanks for putting the never-updated update up... I was still holding out hope you would!

I think I can extrapolate enough from for my own games. I presume that Smite and Lay on Hands would be scaling D6 every odd level (a la Sneak Attack (et al)) and +one pool refill every even level, respectively?

Thanks for all the effort on this, especially since you've become so disillusioned of late. I, for one - and I suspect I'm far from alone - really appreciate it.
Flag January 2, 2008 9:39 AM PST
In our ongoing campaign we agreed to let the paladin switch to your rebalanced one, which is great.

There is a minor issue though, that seem to be a bit out of hand, at least in our game. Its the charging smite variant. When it is based on the X/day use of smite it looks al right, but now that our paladin can use it twice each encounter he deals extremely high levels of damage, and thus seem to outshine the fighter in that regard.

Any thoughts on this matter would be nice. Perhaps its just us, but I see it as a potencial problem in the long haul.

And again, great work
Flag January 2, 2008 12:32 PM PST
Ive used this paladin in several campaigns now (both as DM and as the player) and I honestly haven't found anything wrong with it, thanks for the awesome Paladin!
Flag January 2, 2008 6:59 PM PST

unundindur wrote:

There is a minor issue though, that seem to be a bit out of hand, at least in our game. Its the charging smite variant. When it is based on the X/day use of smite it looks al right, but now that our paladin can use it twice each encounter he deals extremely high levels of damage, and thus seem to outshine the fighter in that regard.

Any thoughts on this matter would be nice. Perhaps its just us, but I see it as a potencial problem in the long haul.

It's a known issue (heck, the first normal, core paladin I played as a PC did well over a hundred damage per hit at level 6 because of ubercharging, and I wasn't even TRYING to optimize or anything), and I had planned to change it months ago (if you'll look back in the thread a while) before I stopped workin' on it. The newer version was going to reduce the bonus to damage, but also add new options to the aggressive specialization. Essentially, this would result in more versatility and a more distinctive combat style while avoiding the pitfall of throwing all your eggs in the ubercharge basket. Originally, I simply used Charging Smite because it was convenient and pre-existing and I'm a lazy bastard who isn't getting paid to write these things.

And again, great work

aotrscommander wrote:

I think I can extrapolate enough from for my own games. I presume that Smite and Lay on Hands would be scaling D6 every odd level (a la Sneak Attack (et al)) and +one pool refill every even level, respectively?

It wouldn't be scaling at d6 every odd level. In fact, it would keep pace with the average damage of the already-existing smite attack.

IIRC, you would receive a 1d6 bonus every 3rd level. As for Lay on Hands, it would work more like the old version. You would start off with 1 or 2 uses per day, and it would scale up to, say, 4. There were also going to be adaptations of Lay on Hands-related feats from various sourcebooks, such as the one that let you use action points to modify LoH uses.

Seeing as it's essentially the same as far as damage goes, it really only serves to add randomization and the hidden effect: Streamlining the "no multiplication of the bonus damage" thing, turning it from a special case with text in the entry to just following the normal "bonus dice don't get multiplied" rule.

Flag January 2, 2008 7:06 PM PST
((Man, gleemax seems to really not like me. Darned double post...))
Flag January 3, 2008 4:12 PM PST

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

It wouldn't be scaling at d6 every odd level. In fact, it would keep pace with the average damage of the already-existing smite attack.

IIRC, you would receive a 1d6 bonus every 3rd level. As for Lay on Hands, it would work more like the old version. You would start off with 1 or 2 uses per day, and it would scale up to, say, 4. There were also going to be adaptations of Lay on Hands-related feats from various sourcebooks, such as the one that let you use action points to modify LoH uses.

Seeing as it's essentially the same as far as damage goes, it really only serves to add randomization and the hidden effect: Streamlining the "no multiplication of the bonus damage" thing, turning it from a special case with text in the entry to just following the normal "bonus dice don't get multiplied" rule.

Got it. That's much more clear, thanks!

Flag January 4, 2008 5:13 PM PST

Nifty.

Remember my little dissertation on how you should decide a unique code for a paladin, paladins of different organizations, and so forth? This is a handy dandy tool for doing exactly that.
Flag January 29, 2008 1:23 PM PST

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

Changes from the never-released update:
-4+int skill points
-Cover altered to make you the new target for an attack, rather than diverting one attack.
-Lay on Hands wouldn't scale twice based on Charisma; it would have a straight progression of number of times per day.
-Divine Wall would have the added benefit of switching Cover to a free action, and the added stipulation that it blocks line of effect only for enemies, not allies.
-Turn Undead gains a penalty like it did before.
-Vindication would make a creature become temporarily corporeal, and subject to critical hits and sneak attacks.
-Hero's Courage gives a slight bonus to Duel of Wills (See Tome of Battle) checks.
-Vigilance gives a slight bonus to Sense Motive.
-Inspiration adds the stipulation that even if an ability is modified to 2/round, the same check cannot be rerolled twice.
-Charging Smite modified so that misses still waste a smite attempt, and that instead of using one double-strength smite, it may instead use two smites at once, and that the basic smite stacks its damage bonus. This allows for combinations such as a vindication strike that also deals smite bonus damage. This also means that Charging Smite blows *two* smites per encounter. Special effects are added for a "charging smite" use of various smite feats that otherwise seem rather incompatible.
-Aura of Devotion altered to make allies more "steadfast" instead of simply harder to hit, fortifying them against special maneuvers such as disarm, bull rush, trip, and any ability that would cause them to move against their will or fall prone. Iffy on that one.

At least, I think that was all of 'em. For those who are curious and keep sending me email about it >_>

Edit: Oh! And I forgot. Since I changed it significantly from the original (which I can't reprint, legally) and nerfed it (double smite damage as opposed to triple) I was going to add more tiers for it in, and write the description for the charging smite in instead of referencing. I don't remember what I gave it though...

I believe it mirrored Argent Bastion. A feat, a special ability (Chargin' smite), a feat again, a special ability again. I don't remember though.

Are these going to end up on the first page at any time?

Flag January 30, 2008 5:33 AM PST
I found a link to this thread, clicked it and WHAM! the awesomeness hit me right in the face. I must voice my support of your variant.

Your paladin variant has a lot of the same ideas as the house rules I have been using ever since I received my pre-ordered copy of 3.0 (where the pally was even worse off). Although I always just scaled LoH by two, you guys have been a lot more meticulous, I see. As a now DM former player who has tangled with the disappointing spellcasting power of both paladin and ranger, I am totally with you on the spells issue.

I always considered it impossible to truly balance wizards and other powerful pure casters with the core melee classes on a level-by-level basis. In my opinion it's more of a balance over the whole 20-level course. To elaborate I mean that the disparity between the power of a level one fighter v. a level one wizard should be on par with the differences at level twenty, with the scale tipped the other way (although it clearly isn't, no amount of feats can make up for the power to stop time...). Ever since they did away with class-based experience progression from 2e this has been an issue without an answer, IMO. I see that this was a consideration with respect to the cleric when you designed your variant, and I think you really bridge the gap between paladin and cleric here, very well done.

I love this paladin variant. My only concern is how to balance the other core melee classes with it as I feel this leaves them behind, particularly the fighter. I have experimented with allowing fighters to spend experience to buy feats but have been unable to find a cost progression that I like. Again, my basis for this is in comparisons made between the fighter and the wizard...the wizard can learn any spell, provided he/she has the cash to spend and a DM who will make them available; wizards can also research spells - doesn't it make sense for the fighter to have similar access to feats?

Concerning the barbarian, I think there's an argument for providing them with some sort of recovery advantage. I have considered a +2 or +1 to level for the purposes of recovering hitpoints through rest. Or perhaps a +1 / four or five levels progression to spread it out a little more evenly.

P.S. Screw remove disease 6 / week...
Flag February 2, 2008 7:00 AM PST
I'm sending this directly into my campaign setting. Thank you, oh, thank you so much for the rebuild :D
Flag February 2, 2008 3:13 PM PST
Wow, you weren't joking about this thread being big. Hope you don't mind if I don't read the responses. XD If I repeat something someone else said, just consider me in agreement. ;]

Ahem. Well, I finally gave it a looksie. I like it. :]

It was interesting for me because I'd actually started a remake of paladin (amongst other classes) a long time ago, and yours shared a number of parts. Smite/encounter, lay on hands refill (though yours can noticeably more than mine), lay on hands--restoration exchanges, and smite--special effect exchanges (which you put into feats). Naturally, I like those. :D

My variant did differ in a few parts, though. Mine was focused more on deity's favored weapon, and I'd completely eliminated spells in exchange for some Su/Sp abilities and sublime progression. Nothing inherently wrong with spells if ya want to use them, though.
I also gave them tower shield proficiency and 4 skill points/level, but maybe that's just me.

There were a couple spells I was concerned about, though nothing terribly jarring. For example, Hallow, in my eyes, shouldn't be a paladin spell; that feels like it encroaches on cleric/druid territory. Heal is sort've on the same boat in my opinion. Those two were the only ones I had noticeable problems with.

All in all, it's a nicely done remake. :] I might adjust a couple things here and there, but nothing's too far off, and I'd probably allow it in a campaign. Cheers.
Flag February 20, 2008 10:56 AM PST
I've finally found the time to convert up the Rebalanced Paladin (i.e, write it up to my classes word document in my preferred format).

While I was at it, I've tried to add OWA's never-released updates, to the best of my ability from what he posted. While this is not the weight of an 'official' OWA update, I'm basically going to try and make a pass at his suggestions for the never-finished update.

(Absolute best case scenario, I get it mostly right and OWA can paste it into the first page, saving him some effort; worst case, at least I've taken a stab at it!)

I shall include the entire relevant text of the ability, hopefully facilitating copy/pasting it into wherever for whoever is inclined to.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals an extra D6 damage. This damage is not multiplied on a critical, or by any other multiplier that would not count "bonus dice." If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that encounter. At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the smite damage increases by +1D6.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per encounter at 20th level. An encounter is considered over when you do no strenuous action for 1 minute or more.

[+D6/3 levels roughly equals +1/level. I started at D6 at level 1, though, because although it's better than traditional paladin Smites, I didn't want to remove Smite altogether from the bottom level. Not too sure about this, but it's a starter for ten, yes? Suggestions, anyone? Dropped the encounter limit from 5 mins to 1 to be in line with ToB's definition of 'encounter'.]

Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level
Flag March 28, 2008 6:36 AM PDT
Too many forums where I'm registered now... oh well, this topic alone was worth it.
I found it only yesterday, and it took me a full day to read it all.

First of all, GREAT WORK.

I was scared of some apparently overpowered changes in the Rebalanced Paladin at the start, but by reading everything, figuring it out in my head, and seeing the answers, i've changed my mind.
The class looks wonderful.
Of course, now the best would be able to try it in the 3.5 campaign i'm currently playing.
My current DM is as of now warry of the smite/Encouter feature, as I was, when I started reading this.
We'll see.

However:
Our group isn't going to 4ed, we're currently going to keep with 3.5 due to the fact we don't like what we have seen so far in 4ed, and we might take a look too at the 3.75.
b) I stumbled onto these pages because i was looking for material for paladins. Like house rules, alternate variants, etc.
This is because I was a little bit desperate: playing right now a 6th Lvl paladin, with sword & shield, and the dungeonscape variant (guardian spirits). A variant I developped also background wise.
It seemed that the only way to keep the improvement of spirits was to keep playing a full paladin (even though my paladin was of a military background, i didn't make a dip of 2 lvl with the fighter class either in the beginning).
and the levels of the paladin are indeed quite dull after the 6th.

So this new version makes it worthwhile, but i saw it was made, as the OP said, before the dungeonscape variant.
Now, the first spirit is the Spirit of Healing.
Do you think the dungeonscape variant fits well with the new revamped paladin ? Or should it be changed slightly ?

Thanks and applause, again.
Flag March 28, 2008 10:11 AM PDT

Elayne wrote:

Do you think the dungeonscape variant fits well with the new revamped paladin ? Or should it be changed slightly ?

Well, I don't have my Dungeonscape with me, but off the top of my head...

The Spirit variant, iirc, is there to make the paladin suck less at healing while not having such an action-intensive focus on it (lay on hands requires you to move to an ally, touch the ally, and heal an unimpressive amount once per day, normally) and seems to be an extension (overhaul) of the crappy spirit spell concept they published in an earlier sourcebook (I think PHB II?)

Now, therein lies the rub. The paladin gradually gains the ability to heal a more impressive amount, revive people, and so forth... but the Rebalanced Paladin already does this. It would probably be worth revising it some in order to make it seem less redundant.

This is just a tentative impression... I haven't actually used the variant, nor am I looking at a copy of Dungeonscape right now.

Flag March 28, 2008 2:08 PM PDT
well, the dungeonscape variant, already quoted in this thread, has the following spirits:

Lvl 5: Spirit of Healing (basically allows the spirit to give twice the LoH amount of hp the paladin can cure: the person to be cured needs to be in the same space as the spirit and to use a standard action).

Lvl 10: Spirit of Combat (+1 sacred bonus each 4 lvls of the paladin to attack & damage rolls to the paladin or/and every ally adjacent/same place as the spirit, max +5. weapons become good aligned for overcoming DR)

Lvl 15: Spirit of Heroism (paladin gains DR 10/-, gains the DieHard feat, and LoH becomes a free action once per round)

Lvl 20: Spirit of the Fallen (Paladin and/or allies adjacent/same place as the spirit gain fast healing 10. If these same characters drop to 0 or less HP, the character is revived at the start of his next turn, by getting healed by an amount of HP equal to twice the paladin's lvl. If the creature is still at -10 or less even with this healing, the creature dies. It's a once per round ability)

So, what would you change ?
Thanks in advance, and I can try to help you in the matter, if you wish. ;-)
Flag March 28, 2008 10:24 PM PDT

Elayne wrote:

well, the dungeonscape variant, already quoted in this thread, has the following spirits:

Lvl 5: Spirit of Healing (basically allows the spirit to give twice the LoH amount of hp the paladin can cure: the person to be cured needs to be in the same space as the spirit and to use a standard action).

Lvl 10: Spirit of Combat (+1 sacred bonus each 4 lvls of the paladin to attack & damage rolls to the paladin or/and every ally adjacent/same place as the spirit, max +5. weapons become good aligned for overcoming DR)

Lvl 15: Spirit of Heroism (paladin gains DR 10/-, gains the DieHard feat, and LoH becomes a free action once per round)

Lvl 20: Spirit of the Fallen (Paladin and/or allies adjacent/same place as the spirit gain fast healing 10. If these same characters drop to 0 or less HP, the character is revived at the start of his next turn, by getting healed by an amount of HP equal to twice the paladin's lvl. If the creature is still at -10 or less even with this healing, the creature dies. It's a once per round ability)

So, what would you change ?
Thanks in advance, and I can try to help you in the matter, if you wish. ;-)

Looks like this "stealth fix" variant added in a lot of things that I *already did,* providing new "auras" and more healing.

Flag March 29, 2008 1:13 AM PDT

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

Looks like this "stealth fix" variant added in a lot of things that I *already did,* providing new "auras" and more healing.

Well, yes.
The Spirit of Healing indeed is quite enough for curing, and is quite a boon at Lvl 5-9.
That doesn't require, however, a lot of changes imho, since the last unofficial revamp posted by aotrscommander in this same page (meaning the revamped paladin gets a new refill of LoH at Lvl 8 only, and not Cha based).
As for the remaining abilities, they seem to stack pretty well with aotrscommander's version but for the "A Hero Never Fails" at Lvl 20.

So, if I look only at the last unofficial version:
The last spirit is of course better than "A Hero Never Fails" (but AHNF works all the day, not only 20 rounds), so I'd move maybe for a change of AHNF.
We have then however the problem of the LoH refills, which start to stack with the Spirit of Healing by Lvl 8 (and get worse and worse).
We have also the big question "Does the Spirit heals also poison or other afflictions like the Paladin do ?" (i guess not)

However, if we look at your page 1 version, then we have some powerful stacking abilities (Aura of Courage bonuses to attack rolls stacking with the Spirit of Combat).

Still not finding much of a solution.

Flag March 29, 2008 9:59 AM PDT
Nice to see you posting on this again OneWinged, if only to address comments and concerns.

Anyway, my c/c is regarding the final ability of the rebalanced paladin: A Hero Never Falls. My problem is not quite the same as Elayne's, but I, too, feel the ability could use a little punch. If you compare the rebalanced paladin to the two classes most similar to it (The Crusader and the Knight), both also have a very similar ability (knight as his capstone, and Crusader as his best/final stance), both of which are MUCH better than AHNF. In the same situation, a re-Paly will last 1 round and then die, in all likelihood, whereas the knight will keep going for over 10 rounds, and the Crusader can go probably 3 rounds reliably (maybe more if he can not get hit and reactivate the stance).

Personally, I'd like to see something falling somewhere between the two abilities. The knight's ability is obviously much better than the other two, and the re-Paly shouldn't necessary step on his toes, but certainly more than a round of deathlessness isn't too much to ask for?

Thinking perhaps requiring an expenditure of a smite/encounter (perhaps instead reducing the number of smites you can make in the day meaning that using the ability will cost you for the entire day) or a LoH recharge (not necessarily the one you have currently, but 1 from your total...so you still can heal once in the fight).

In any case, what do you, and the other participating members of this thread feel about A Hero Never Falls?
Flag March 29, 2008 11:29 AM PDT

yeti1069 wrote:

In any case, what do you, and the other participating members of this thread feel about A Hero Never Falls?

My humble opinion is that it's the tipical 20th lvl Paladin ability you'd expect to see. Because, as the title states, the Paladin IS a hero.
However, since the ability already exists with the Spirit of the Fallen, it's something maybe to be changed.

Just something that crossed my mind... not particularly balanced, but hey, the idea is similar.

A Hero Never Gives Up
Once per day, the Paladin, if she (or her party) is outnumbered (or badly injured ? -like half HP- or any other dreadful condition), she may call her last inner ressources to make good triumph and save her companions.
The call is also to her patron.
The paladin and her allies are immediately healed as if they were touched by LoH, and the paladin regains all spells casts during that day (or all uses of her abilities -smite, LoH, etc.-, her choice)

Flag March 29, 2008 6:30 PM PDT

yeti1069 wrote:

Nice to see you posting on this again OneWinged, if only to address comments and concerns.

Anyway, my c/c is regarding the final ability of the rebalanced paladin: A Hero Never Falls. My problem is not quite the same as Elayne's, but I, too, feel the ability could use a little punch. If you compare the rebalanced paladin to the two classes most similar to it (The Crusader and the Knight), both also have a very similar ability (knight as his capstone, and Crusader as his best/final stance), both of which are MUCH better than AHNF. In the same situation, a re-Paly will last 1 round and then die, in all likelihood, whereas the knight will keep going for over 10 rounds, and the Crusader can go probably 3 rounds reliably (maybe more if he can not get hit and reactivate the stance).

Personally, I'd like to see something falling somewhere between the two abilities. The knight's ability is obviously much better than the other two, and the re-Paly shouldn't necessary step on his toes, but certainly more than a round of deathlessness isn't too much to ask for?

Thinking perhaps requiring an expenditure of a smite/encounter (perhaps instead reducing the number of smites you can make in the day meaning that using the ability will cost you for the entire day) or a LoH recharge (not necessarily the one you have currently, but 1 from your total...so you still can heal once in the fight).

In any case, what do you, and the other participating members of this thread feel about A Hero Never Falls?

The Rebalanced Paladin's ability has an advantage over the Crusader in the respect that he can resist any sort of death effect... not just death from hp damage.

Remember: Becoming immune to death by hp damage is only a 4th level spell... that you can cast at range as an immediate action. It really is the least of your concerns

Flag April 2, 2008 2:02 AM PDT
Would it be bad to allow the rebalanced paladin to use the expanded spell options the paladin gets in the spell compendium (or to take the battle blessing feat for that matter)? I am thinking of letting someone use it in an upcoming campaign I am running and I don't know if rhino rush, favor of the martyr, etc give this stronger, better paladin too much. Any thoughts?
Flag April 2, 2008 3:18 PM PDT

Would it be bad to allow the rebalanced paladin to use the expanded spell options the paladin gets in the spell compendium (or to take the battle blessing feat for that matter)? I am thinking of letting someone use it in an upcoming campaign I am running and I don't know if rhino rush, favor of the martyr, etc give this stronger, better paladin too much. Any thoughts?

I wouldn't think it would be a problem. The paladin leap-attack-charging-smite cruise missile has always been around, and all the buff spells in the SpC (the sweet, succulent buff spells...) certainly add power, but it happens late in the game and not often enough unless the paladin in question really pumped their Wisdom score. If the character did pump their wisdom (at the expense of all the other important stats for paladins, mind you) the character has freaking earned the right to be a magic buff-machine. The caster level is still slightly lower than normal, so the paladin is still extra-vulnerable to dispelling effects and reduced durations.

The only conflict I can see--involving paladin casting, that is-- is Battle Blessing, from CC, and the rebalanced spell list. That feat is a true band-aid for paladins and the new one doesn't really need it. That didn't stop my paladin (this one, not the PHB one) from taking the feat, however. Potent!

Flag April 4, 2008 12:30 PM PDT
I utterly love all this. This is fantastic.

I have one complaint.

Dont give them extra spells/day. It kind of breaks the mechanic. They dont -need- the extra spell slots. Consider the Hexblade, the Ranger, or any other 'minor' spellcasting class that gets those few spells. With a high charisma and the abilities, they dont need more spells per day. It's an un-needed tweak and so far my only complaint.
Flag April 4, 2008 2:08 PM PDT
Have you ever played a paladin? The number of spells you get is so insignificant, than many people choose to take 4 feats, instead of any spellcasting whatsoever. Feats, which are almost unaimously regarded as being fairly weak, vs. spells which rule all (popular opinion anyway).

You don't get THAT many more spells from this, but more than 1 for a day isn't asking too much.
Flag April 4, 2008 6:49 PM PDT
Yes. I have. And to level 20. And I have played a Hexblade, A Ranger, and all the other 'minor' caster classes out there.(They are my favorites) The spells are a -bonus-. You dont really use -that many- of them. As you grow in level, you're not going to use too many of them in your encounters, as they are often buff or backup. It throws off the progression mechanic.

Normal pallies with Battle Blessing as a stealth fix tend to make those spells a lot more useful, and a good periapt of wisdom will start helping you with those bonus spell slots (or even pearls of power).

The Rebalanced Pally doesnt NEED extra spell slots, seriously. Those spells he now has are -great- additions, and all the smite feats and class abilities make up for it.

My friend and I made a Hexblade variant, mind... (partially based on Mike Mearls's update fix) which made us very happy. Oh, we also considered giving them a form of Battle Blessing, and then they shone exceptionally bright.
Flag April 4, 2008 9:25 PM PDT
The spells per day are fine.
Flag April 5, 2008 9:13 AM PDT
Any plans to make a paladin of tyranny, slaughter or freedom with this revamp?
Flag April 5, 2008 4:15 PM PDT

aotrscommander wrote:

I've finally found the time to convert up the Rebalanced Paladin (i.e, write it up to my classes word document in my preferred format).

While I was at it, I've tried to add OWA's never-released updates, to the best of my ability from what he posted. While this is not the weight of an 'official' OWA update, I'm basically going to try and make a pass at his suggestions for the never-finished update.

(Absolute best case scenario, I get it mostly right and OWA can paste it into the first page, saving him some effort; worst case, at least I've taken a stab at it!)

I shall include the entire relevant text of the ability, hopefully facilitating copy/pasting it into wherever for whoever is inclined to.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals an extra D6 damage. This damage is not multiplied on a critical, or by any other multiplier that would not count "bonus dice." If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that encounter. At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the smite damage increases by +1D6.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per encounter at 20th level. An encounter is considered over when you do no strenuous action for 1 minute or more.

[+D6/3 levels roughly equals +1/level. I started at D6 at level 1, though,  because although it's better than traditional paladin Smites, I didn't want to remove Smite altogether from the bottom level. Not too sure about this, but it's a starter for ten, yes? Suggestions, anyone? Dropped the encounter limit from 5 mins to 1 to be in line with ToB's definition of 'encounter'.]

Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level

Flag April 7, 2008 3:40 AM PDT

Optimator wrote:

The only conflict I can see--involving paladin casting, that is-- is Battle Blessing, from CC, and the rebalanced spell list. That feat is a true band-aid for paladins and the new one doesn't really need it. That didn't stop my paladin (this one, not the PHB one) from taking the feat, however. Potent!

I modified the feat a bit for my own personal usage...

Battle Blessing [General]

As Complete Champion, but:

Benefit: You may use this ability 1 per day, plus 1/day for every 5 Paladin or Blackguard levels. You may expend two Smite attempts to gain an additional use of this ability.

So it's sort of like a slightly better Sudden Quicken specific to the Paladin class. I'm loath to get rid of it entirely, since it was one of the few bits of Complete Champion that wasn't completely useless to me. But as it stood, as OWA, it was a bit too much for the Rebalanced. Make of it what you will.

Flag April 7, 2008 10:12 PM PDT
Kinda an offhanded thought which may have been brought up here or in another thread. But I feel like a paladin, one who has the resolve to follow such a difficult path, should really have a good Will save. Probably unbalancing but it just seems in line with what a paladin is all about.

Paladin's were the class that got me into the game back in 2nd edition; I was very enamored by their special abilities and ideals. I'd love to try this variant out, however I'll probably have issues with my DM allowing it.
Flag April 9, 2008 5:45 AM PDT

Divisionbyzer0 wrote:

Kinda an offhanded thought which may have been brought up here or in another thread. But I feel like a paladin, one who has the resolve to follow such a difficult path, should really have a good Will save. Probably unbalancing but it just seems in line with what a paladin is all about.

Paladin's were the class that got me into the game back in 2nd edition; I was very enamored by their special abilities and ideals. I'd love to try this variant out, however I'll probably have issues with my DM allowing it.

The knight from PHB II has a good will save (and only a good will save). It makes sense to me that the paladin would be the same. That seems like a fair trade and almost necessary flavor-wise. I second that as a further change to the rebalanced paladin...then take the spell breaker specialization and alter it accordingly.

Flag April 9, 2008 10:40 AM PDT
Hey I was wondering if anyone had figured out a good way to switch the Blackguard over to this. I admit to not reading all 30 pages of course so if it has been done I simply ask for the link. I want to use that for my main villain in my current game.
Flag April 9, 2008 3:21 PM PDT

The knight from PHB II has a good will save (and only a good will save). It makes sense to me that the paladin would be the same.

Does the Knight get Charisma to his saves or need Wisdom to use certain class abilities? The Paladin will have a good will save, it just won't have the "good" progression. IMO.

Flag April 10, 2008 12:12 PM PDT

Optimator wrote:

Does the Knight get Charisma to his saves or need Wisdom to use certain class abilities? The Paladin will have a good will save, it just won't have the "good" progression. IMO.

Well, Knight aside, the paladin needs high constitution and gets his charisma bonus to fortitude saves too so right now he has super high fortitude.You could also argue he doesn't need the good save progression in fortitude for this reason. Personally, I would just rather he have super high will saves and decent fortitude saves than the reverse. It's just a difference of opinion on the theme based on my conception of a paladin...iron will in the face of temptation, hopeless odds, extreme torment, etc.

Flag April 10, 2008 8:24 PM PDT
Just got a look at this class at the recommendation of a friend, and I like some of the ideas behind it very much. Not sure if I'd wholesale bring it into my campaign, but I'm on the fence at the moment. Anyway, here's a couple of thoughts:

1) You use the female pronoun when describing the mechanics and flavor of the class, but you have a male "iconic" illustration. I recommend changing that to a female paladin of some sort. (Feel free to use this image if you want, but make a credit note if you do. Thanks.)

2) You may want to either change the Aura of Good name or make a note in the Paladin's Aura section that the Aura of Good affects the paladin. Because, according to the class's aura rules as written, the Paladin's Aura of Good makes his allies detect as super-good, but has no affect on him. It's pretty obvious what this is supposed to do, but the literal reading of the rules leads to something silly like that.

Anyway, I'll look it over a bit more and such. I'd love to see what kind of TWF abilities a paladin like this could have (possibly able to dual smite with the two swords at some point), because I've wanted to play a dual-wielding paladin since I saw a particular Reaper mini...
Flag April 10, 2008 10:01 PM PDT

Mercurius wrote:

2) You may want to either change the Aura of Good name or make a note in the Paladin's Aura section that the Aura of Good affects the paladin. Because, according to the class's aura rules as written, the Paladin's Aura of Good makes his allies detect as super-good, but has no affect on him. It's pretty obvious what this is supposed to do, but the literal reading of the rules leads to something silly like that.

...Read it again. It explicitly notes that Aura of Good is not a switchable aura.

Anyway, I'll look it over a bit more and such. I'd love to see what kind of TWF abilities a paladin like this could have (possibly able to dual smite with the two swords at some point)

That's already in the class writeup too... see "divine cross."

Well, Knight aside, the paladin needs high constitution and gets his charisma bonus to fortitude saves too so right now he has super high fortitude.You could also argue he doesn't need the good save progression in fortitude for this reason. Personally, I would just rather he have super high will saves and decent fortitude saves than the reverse. It's just a difference of opinion on the theme based on my conception of a paladin...iron will in the face of temptation, hopeless odds, extreme torment, etc.

I was under the impression that the Paladin was made overly susceptible to mind-affecting affects by WotC because "the hero becomes evil for an episode" is a favorite cliche of the unoriginal and uncreative.

Seriously though, switch out Fort for Will if you feel it is more appropriate. Have fun.

aotrscommander wrote:

Battle Blessing [General]
As Complete Champion, but:

Benefit: You may use this ability 1 per day, plus 1/day for every 5 Paladin or Blackguard levels. You may expend two Smite attempts to gain an additional use of this ability.

That's *still* a must have feat. What other feat compares to "quick spell progression kinda like the Duskblade, and more if you spend per-encounter resources"?

It's not much of a nerf.

Hellsbells wrote:

Any plans to make a paladin of tyranny, slaughter or freedom with this revamp?

I don't plan to do anything more for 3.5e, including updating this paladin rewrite. Not only is 4e on the horizon, but I have found myself nearly unable to work on anything lately, including playing, let alone homebrewing or DMing, D&D.

Flag April 10, 2008 10:03 PM PDT
((Bloody double posts))
Flag April 11, 2008 4:58 AM PDT

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

...Read it again. It explicitly notes that Aura of Good is not a switchable aura.

Ah. My mistake for not taking the term "Switchable Aura" as an actual nomenclature. And after all my arguments in another thread about it, too. :embarrass

That's already in the class writeup too... see "divine cross."

Sorry. I expected to see it in the specializations, rather than in feats. Especially since the three specializations there don't seem to be of as much use to a TWFer (since you typically can't charge and TWF, mounted isn't usually good, and defensive seems to encourage shields...).

That wasn't exactly the nicest way to point out my error, though.

Flag April 11, 2008 7:30 PM PDT

Mercurius wrote:

Sorry. I expected to see it in the specializations, rather than in feats. Especially since the three specializations there don't seem to be of as much use to a TWFer (since you typically can't charge and TWF, mounted isn't usually good, and defensive seems to encourage shields...).

Originally, I was going to add a "Divine Cross" specialization, and the divine cross feat was originally the first ability you got. The pic for it had Aribeth (from NWN) charging at a Balor with two swords. Also originally, I included Aggressive as a straight transfer from the PHB II, in line with the idea of "small tweak, mostly same as the original in feel and flavor," as well as Mounted, with the new Defensive spec rounding out the already existing "specs." I did want to eventually change that, making a new Mounted and Aggressive spec that was, well, nicer... but I never really got around to it. The never-arriving new aggressive spec, however, was intended to solve this "Divine Cross Doesn't Synergize With Anything" problem with some more universally applicable, and thus make Divine Cross more equitable as a feat rather than a spec all its own (it also nerfed the cruise missile charge paladin, and allowed for more versatile and creative strategies by giving the user more options, such as combining the effects of multiple smite feats, as opposed to the original charging smite simply giving you a really strong combat option that you'll want to open with whenever you can, which is boring).

The reality is that I just never got around to sitting down and finishing any of this stuff I meant to do, and instead of continuing to lie to myself and say "I'll do it eventually" (as I've been doing ever since I started this second thread), I now know that I'll never get it done. The Rebalanced Paladin just isn't as complete as it should be. Sorry.

Anyways, you can always use Two Weapon Charge or Pounce with Charging Smite and Divine Cross or something like that if you don't want to houserule yourself.

That wasn't exactly the nicest way to point out my error, though.

Sorry. Next time I'll use this symbol instead

Yay smilies.

Flag April 14, 2008 5:48 PM PDT
I'm not sure that paladins need a great deal to balance them. With the feat that allows them to cast spells as swift actions from the Complete Champion, about the only thing they might need is to change their spell casting from WIS to CHA based and make it spontaneous. That way they can use their spells (most of which are very situational) as the battle demands, without interrupting their other options, and they aren't spreading their stats around as much (considering that they need four, which is somewhat excessive IMO, this makes them only need 2).
Flag April 17, 2008 1:18 AM PDT
I fixed that ages ago by giving it the treatment it deserved.

REVISED BATTLE BLESSING [Epic]
Prerequisites Ability to cast third level paladin spells
Benefit Once per day If the spell normally requires a standard action you may cast it as a swift action
once per day. Alternatively if the spell normally requires a full round to cast, you can cast it as a
standard action.
Special Spells with longer or shorter casting times are not affected by this feat.
Flag April 20, 2008 10:53 PM PDT
So has the Paladin on page 1 been updated lately with all the feedback and changes? With 31 pages of text and such I'm getting a bit lost? So I apologize in advance if it's been mentioned and I just glossed over it. If it hasn't been updated, what changes need to be made to make it on par? Thanks!
Flag April 20, 2008 11:38 PM PDT

DevaNinja wrote:

So has the Paladin on page 1 been updated lately with all the feedback and changes?

No. Heck, it's hardly been changed at all since the second thread started.

And it will never be updated. Even if I was still interested, I do not post any of my homebrew material on the WotC boards anymore, and I haven't for a long time now. There's nothing in it for me, and I don't appreciate WotC assuming intellectual property rights. If you want to see any of my homebrew stuff, this is the wrong place on the internet to look for it. Sorry.

Flag April 20, 2008 11:44 PM PDT
Think you can PM where I can find it?
Flag April 20, 2008 11:50 PM PDT

Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:

Think you can PM where I can find it?

Yes if you would PM where to find the info that would be fantastic.

Flag April 20, 2008 11:51 PM PDT
It's not anywhere. I've abandoned the Rebalanced Paladin some time ago, and I'm unlikely to work on anything more in 3.5e, particularly seeing as I'm no longer DMing nor playing 3.5e D&D. Sorry.

I'll probably start posting new material on my own website sometime after 4th edition comes out. If that happens, I'll sig it.
Flag April 21, 2008 11:13 AM PDT

Objulen wrote:

I'm not sure that paladins need a great deal to balance them. With the feat that allows them to cast spells as swift actions from the Complete Champion, about the only thing they might need is to change their spell casting from WIS to CHA based and make it spontaneous. That way they can use their spells (most of which are very situational) as the battle demands, without interrupting their other options, and they aren't spreading their stats around as much (considering that they need four, which is somewhat excessive IMO, this makes them only need 2).

This is a very good, easy fix. O.o Why was this not thought of before?

Well, maybe some extra feats, or at -very- least turn it to smites/encounter.

Flag April 21, 2008 6:40 PM PDT

KazumoShun wrote:

This is a very good, easy fix. O.o Why was this not thought of before?

Uh, it has been. Actually, the idea was discussed in the first thread, I think, even though Complete Champion wasn't out by then.

Flag April 26, 2008 5:55 AM PDT
And here I was thinking I had an original idea.

Did anyone test it? If so, how did it work out?
Flag April 27, 2008 3:56 AM PDT
4ngel,

I downloaded the PDF of the most recent version, .81 I believe, and edited it for my homebrew, as well as included the alternate builds that you have posted early on in the thread. I've got it all together, retyped and formatted, sort of, and all I have left to do is add in your section on the Prestige Class adaptation, and the Paladin's spell list.

I have your name at the top of the author's list, but I know there are more who contributed. With your permission, and ONLY with your permission, if you could tell me the other author's that contributed to your original rebuild, I will get the author's of the variants that were added later, and I am willing to try and find a place to host the file to share with those who want it.

Obviously, I am more than willing to show you the file first, so you can approve it before I do any hosting, and if you don't want it posted anywhere at all, I will not do so.

Let me know, preferably here in the thread so everyone can see, and we'll go from there.

I'm currently using this rebuild in the campaign I'm playing in, and I love it. Thanks for all your hard work.
Flag April 27, 2008 6:36 PM PDT

Jager Mage wrote:

4ngel,

I downloaded the PDF of the most recent version, .81 I believe, and edited it for my homebrew, as well as included the alternate builds that you have posted early on in the thread. I've got it all together, retyped and formatted, sort of, and all I have left to do is add in your section on the Prestige Class adaptation, and the Paladin's spell list.

I have your name at the top of the author's list, but I know there are more who contributed. With your permission, and ONLY with your permission, if you could tell me the other author's that contributed to your original rebuild, I will get the author's of the variants that were added later, and I am willing to try and find a place to host the file to share with those who want it.

Obviously, I am more than willing to show you the file first, so you can approve it before I do any hosting, and if you don't want it posted anywhere at all, I will not do so.

Let me know, preferably here in the thread so everyone can see, and we'll go from there.

I'm currently using this rebuild in the campaign I'm playing in, and I love it. Thanks for all your hard work.

This work is credited to me and Seerow, as noted in the first post. Anything that isn't by me and/or Seerow is not in the first post.

Flag July 2, 2008 3:05 PM PDT
The links I tried from the first page to dl the rebalenced paladin guide arnt working. Anyone got a link that is working please.
Flag July 31, 2008 3:05 PM PDT
Just thought some folks would like to know... I'm actually working on a far more expansive rebalancing and revising project than the Rebalanced Paladin, and have been for a good while now. Actually, the Rebalanced Paladin 2.0 is just a small facet of it.

So, there you have it, the real reason for my absence. Unfortunately, the project likely will not be out for another year at least.
Flag October 24, 2008 6:16 AM PDT
I'm really impressed, wonderful work! My DM was also impressed with the class a lot and will likely implement it in our ongoing campaign. We were wondering if you had done something like this for bards or other classes: I really can't wait to see other stuff from you!
Once again thanks for your amazing work!
Flag July 8, 2009 11:13 AM PDT

xelloss_ssj wrote:

I'm really impressed, wonderful work! My DM was also impressed with the class a lot and will likely implement it in our ongoing campaign. We were wondering if you had done something like this for bards or other classes: I really can't wait to see other stuff from you!
Once again thanks for your amazing work!

For Bards, I rather like Eela's Seeker of the Song, even if he never really finished it. As for other stuff, see the link in my sig to FLGS.

Flag July 8, 2009 11:16 AM PDT

xelloss_ssj wrote:

I'm really impressed, wonderful work! My DM was also impressed with the class a lot and will likely implement it in our ongoing campaign. We were wondering if you had done something like this for bards or other classes: I really can't wait to see other stuff from you!
Once again thanks for your amazing work!

My gaming group has been using the rebalanced paladin exclusively in our games for a while now. Excellent job 4ngel!

Flag July 8, 2009 6:32 PM PDT
Solid work! The paladin definitely needs help at higher levels, much like the fighter and barbarian.

A couple of critiques though:

The aura switching thing seem a bit too much like a knockoff from World of Warcraft, IMO. A change to auras isn't a bad idea though, but I'd just take Aura of Courage and give it a single scaling buffing ability.

I like what you did with Lay on Hands. It gives the paladin a lot of versatility the class lacked, and gives paladins their own special type of healing.

I don't like the paladin having smites/encounter, or being able to "recharge" his Lay on Hands points... If you want to play that game, you need to play 4th edition, where every class gets 1/encounter abilities. Otherwise, you need to give all classes with #/day abilities some degree of #/encounter abilities to balance everything out.

That said, I agree that smites and undead turning needs some help. I personally gave a paladin in my game "paladin bonus feats" (1 every 3 levels, IIRC) that allowed him to take only feats that specifically modify paladin abilities, such as smite and turn undead. That gave him a much needed level of versatility, without him having to blow every bonus feat he gets trying to do so. (In all actuality, its very similar in game design to your "specializations" you give paladins at 5th level. Great minds think alike, apparently.)

Solid work though, lots of good ideas.
Flag July 8, 2009 7:49 PM PDT

Aimian Silverflash wrote:

The aura switching thing seem a bit too much like a knockoff from World of Warcraft, IMO.

Name one mechanical similarity that originated from World of Warcraft, and maybe I can hold back the very nasty things I am thinking right now.

Specifically, my objections to your statement:

The aura switching thing seem a bit too much like a knockoff from World of Warcraft, IMO.

There isn't "Aura Switching" in Warcraft 3. I don't know if there was in WoW, but I don't believe there was if my memory serves. But I do know that in Warcraft 3, auras did not work like stances and were Passive, Non-Exclusive abilities rather than Exclusive ones (putting them in an entirely different broad category of game design!). So you're basically telling me that something that wasn't in Warcraft is a knockoff of Warcraft.

I presume this is because World of Warcraft is the only freakin' videogame you've played with Paladins in it and erroneously believe that WoW was the only thing to give paladins auras (it's... not) and are the kind of person who would say that a book about witches ripped off Harry Potter.

I am sorry to be so blunt, I know you are not trying to be insulting, but this is an extreme pet peeve for me when people erroneously assume that something is knocked off just because of some arbitrary, extremely vague similarity to something that just happened to become popular enough that people outside the usual genre following get into it and think that everything else was ripped off of it.

The auras actually came about as a direct result of one of our initial design goals for the Rebalanced Paladin, which was to stick very closely to the traditional D&D paladin elements and expand on them rather directly (that is, all the features are still Smite, Lay on Hands, Aura of X, and Special Mount or variants that replace it, exactly as the original paladin was. We aimed to expand on existing concepts rather than create wholly new ones). Aura of Courage was already there, and we used that as a basis to give them other leadership-based effects, and carried over the nomenclature "aura." WoW never came into the equation.

By your logic, "Aura of Courage" is somehow a WoW knockoff. Frankly, the sentiment is erroneous and silly.

A change to auras isn't a bad idea though, but I'd just take Aura of Courage and give it a single scaling buffing ability.

And I think players should occasionally gain cool new powers as they level up, just like every caster does. Realize that a wizard gets a scaling power pretty much every time they choose a spell, so you're basically just saying you'd never let Paladins get new powers, just scale an old one to an appropriate caster level. Scaling caster level without getting any new spells, ever.

People don't take wizard levels for the scaling CL (they can get that with the practiced spellcaster feat), they take it for the new powers and higher tier powers. Simply scaling up the numbers for old tricks doesn't do a lot to help you compete in the world of D&D, because the good classes scale up in numbers automatically while gaining sweet new powers all the time. This is where you and others appear to have a double standard. How come fighter-types can't have nice things? How come they can just get BAB scaling instead of new ways to act? Why should I only get one scaling buffing ability over my whole career, especially seeing as I'm taking a year or so to go through all those sessions to do all that levelling up? I'd like some variety and growth in my character's career, rather than just the same thing with bigger numbers.

Flag July 8, 2009 8:53 PM PDT
Simmer down turbo, no need to crit me with a wall of text. :P

Regardless of the exact origin, or what author or game designer came up with the concept of "Aura switching" ... -Like it or not, WoW (the most successful MMORPG ever, bar none) is the game that took it mainstream, specifically with their paladin class. Your post is from December 2006, approximately two years after WoW released, so I assumed you got the idea from there. -Hell, you even named the auras the same in some cases. I don't think it was an unreasonable assumption.

But if I struck a pet peeve, I can understand that. Quite honestly that's partially what led to the comment to begin with... My personal pet peeve with the latest pen-and-paper RPGs now-a-days, including 4th edition is that they all want to model themselves after WoW. FFS, if I wanted to play WoW, I'd turn on my computer...

But on a side note, it would appear you are an aspiring game designer. (Awesome, btw.) -But you may want to learn to take criticism a little better... The more you write, the more criticism you will find yourself taking. -And if you crit people with walls of text every time someone disagrees with an idea of yours, you'll spend more time defending your work than you will actually writing new ideas. (Suit yourself though, I am just trying to save you from being bald by age 30, lol.)

Just my 2 coppers. Time for bed.
Flag July 8, 2009 9:16 PM PDT

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

And I think players should occasionally gain cool new powers as they level up, just like every caster does. Realize that a wizard gets a scaling power pretty much every time they choose a spell, so you're basically just saying you'd never let Paladins get new powers, just scale an old one to an appropriate caster level. Scaling caster level without getting any new spells, ever.

Ummm... Paladins get spells too, right? Sure, the spells aren't as powerful as a wizard's, but your argument also applies to them in that regard.

I do like the aura abilities though, but if you wanted to really have fun with it, I'd give them all at a much lower level, and let them all scale upwards from there. Make them basically core abilities of the class, and let people have fun with it all the way up. (Just make sure it doesn't become overpowered.)

By the way, WTF is with this?

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

This is where you and others appear to have a double standard. How come fighter-types can't have nice things?

Aimian Silverflash]Solid work! The paladin definitely needs help at higher levels, much like the fighter and barbarian.

-A little presumptive and paranoid, don't you th wrote:

Solid work! The paladin definitely needs help at higher levels, much like the fighter and barbarian.[/quote]
-A little presumptive and paranoid, don't you think? :P

Flag July 8, 2009 10:14 PM PDT

Regardless of the exact origin, or what author or game designer came up with the concept of "Aura switching" ... -Like it or not, WoW (the most successful MMORPG ever, bar none) is the game that took it mainstream, specifically with their paladin class.

Hence my presumption that you are the kind of person who would say "The Witching Hour" ripped off Harry Potter. The illogical form you just used demonstrates my point quite clearly.

And again, as far as I know, there is no aura switching mechanic in Warcraft. They're passive non-exclusive abilities, and thus just always on.

And if you crit people with walls of text

Not only do you appear to be the sort of person who would call a story about witches a direct knockoff of Harry Potter, you also are the kind of person who thinks that a detailed and thorough answer is in some way a negative thing and represents anger.

Incidentally, your comments about taking criticisms are extremely misguided and hypocritical. I addressed your arguments directly, pointing out where I found flaws in your reasoning, as is to be expected in any actual productive conversation, and you then immediately took that personally and started complaining about having your arguments addressed in such ways as "the response was offensively long."

The thing is, the one not taking criticisms well is you. I responded to your comments, and you got offended and started making misguided personal attacks instead of actually addressing the points given in said comments. You should learn to take criticisms better. The only one getting angry here is you, with your erroneous assumptions and rampant misinterpretations. Remember, tone does not translate directly into text, so you may want to stop leaping to assumptions so quickly.

Flag July 9, 2009 5:20 AM PDT
Do me a favor: Google "Aura switching" First four results: World of Warcraft Forum results.

OK, now google "Paladin Auras". Nearly all results are from World of Warcraft or Diablo 2, which by the way, is the first time a game introduced a paladin with changing auras.

Alright, now google "Devotion Aura", your AC buffing aura. WOW, look at that! Tons of World of Warcraft results, talking about a paladin aura that buffs your armor rating. Later, you'll see discussion threads about which aura (yes, they switch) is better to fight with, Devotion or Retribution. (Retribution being the offensive one, similar to what you turned Aura of Courage into.) Imagine that!

Reality Check: ITS NOT YOUR IDEA. Quit acting like you invented the wheel.

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

I responded to your comments, and you got offended and started making misguided personal attacks instead of actually addressing the points given in said comments. You should learn to take criticisms better. The only one getting angry here is you, with your erroneous assumptions and rampant misinterpretations. Remember, tone does not translate directly into text, so you may want to stop leaping to assumptions so quickly.

OK, since I supposedly make misguided personal attacks, here's your misguided personal attack: Your an idiot.

YOU are the one that got all butt-hurt the moment I even hint that the idea came from another source.

YOU are the one that flamed me with a ridiculing tone the moment I offer constructive criticism about your designs, not knowing anything about me.

And why are you so hung up on Harry Potter? -Not the subject matter! -And "The Witching Hour" was a book by Anne Rice, sitting on my bookshelf. (Not a very good one I might add... -Or at least not as good as her earlier work.) But once again: NOT THE SUBJECT MATTER!

Since all you want to do is Nerd Rage on anyone that criticizes you, and in general listen to yourself talk, I am done here. -Too bad too, your ideas did have potential. You have a lot to learn, young Padawan.

Flag July 9, 2009 8:00 AM PDT

Aimian Silverflash wrote:

. . .
And why are you so hung up on Harry Potter? -Not the subject matter! -And "The Witching Hour" was a book by Anne Rice, sitting on my bookshelf. (Not a very good one I might add... -Or at least not as good as her earlier work.) But once again: NOT THE SUBJECT MATTER!. . .

It's an analogy.

Anne Rice wrote her books before J. K. Rowling. However if you found the Harry Potter books first in your local bookstore... then grew up a little, then found the Rice books... you might erroneously suppose that Rice is ripping off Rowling... which would be wrong. Both are borrowing extensively from folklore to create their books... sources of stories long before either of them was ever born.

Same thing. The paladin is at least as old as Charlemagne. You are erroneously comparing this incarnation of the paladin to a video game version when the inspirations for this class come from different things that are older than the video game. That's what he's saying... or at least that's what I gather he's saying.

My reading comprehension is not always what it should be.

Considering that 3rd editions came out of AD&D came out of 1st edition came out of various myths and legends.... I find it strange to think that you can only interpret this class revision through the eyes of a video game that has had about 5 different incarnations of itself in the past twelve years or so... although I'm not really up on the history of warcraft.

And google isn't omniscient. It will find you what you ask for... not what you didn't know to ask for.

Just saying.

Flag July 9, 2009 3:54 PM PDT

teshen wrote:

It's an analogy.

Anne Rice wrote her books before J. K. Rowling. However if you found the Harry Potter books first in your local bookstore... then grew up a little, then found the Rice books... you might erroneously suppose that Rice is ripping off Rowling... which would be wrong. Both are borrowing extensively from folklore to create their books... sources of stories long before either of them was ever born.

Same thing. The paladin is at least as old as Charlemagne. You are erroneously comparing this incarnation of the paladin to a video game version when the inspirations for this class come from different things that are older than the video game. That's what he's saying... or at least that's what I gather he's saying.

My reading comprehension is not always what it should be.

Considering that 3rd editions came out of AD&D came out of 1st edition came out of various myths and legends.... I find it strange to think that you can only interpret this class revision through the eyes of a video game that has had about 5 different incarnations of itself in the past twelve years or so... although I'm not really up on the history of warcraft.

And google isn't omniscient. It will find you what you ask for... not what you didn't know to ask for.

Just saying.

Teshen has the general right of it. I think the idea of an "analogy" kinda went over Aiman's head there. Still, for the sake of completeness, I'll dissect the ridiculousness of Aiman's last post. Not that I really expect him to listen any more than when I argue with creationists, but w/e.

Aimian Silverflash wrote:

Do me a favor: Google "Aura switching" First four results: World of Warcraft Forum results.

I actually got Warhammer for my first result. A non-issue in any case, as Teshen said.

OK, now google "Paladin Auras". Nearly all results are from World of Warcraft or Diablo 2

Boy, maybe because those games are popular? To make another analogy: Just because I search, say, "hobgoblin" and most of what I get is Spider Man doesn't mean that Marvel invented hobgoblins. Incidentally, Diablo 2 predates World of Warcraft, so you're not aiding your argument here.

Actually, my ability was named "Aura of Devotion." Also, since these are common use words describing a similar effect, your complaint is akin to saying that a game with "Sword Attack" is ripping off a game with "Attack with Sword."

Reality Check: ITS NOT YOUR IDEA. Quit acting like you invented the wheel.

Reality check: I never claimed to invent the idea of exclusive passive group buffing powers, nor the idea of Paladins having leadership-related abilities. I said that WoW didn't either and thus your claims of a WoW knock-off are unsubstantiated. Thus, your argument is a straw man. A shouting straw man, too. And yet you're accusing me of rage.

OK, since I supposedly make misguided personal attacks, here's your misguided personal attack: Your an idiot.

Yup, that would be an example of a misguided personal attack by you all right. Complete with terrible spelling for bonus points! You're not really helping yourself out here.

YOU are the one that got all butt-hurt the moment I even hint that the idea came from another source.

I think it's pretty clear who the "butt-hurt" party is, here...

Incidentally, you seem to be completely unaware of your own words (or, if not unaware, clearly disingenuous). You did not "hint." You claimed, in no uncertain terms, that the Rebalanced Paladin was a knock-off of World of Warcraft. Not that a single mechanic might have taken inspiration from that source or anything of the sort. You just outright said it was plagiarized. That is not a "hint" in any sense of the word. My response was explaining to you why that claim is unsubstantiated. You then proceed to complain about the response and start whining and shouting at me with excessive use of capital letters, finally deciding to storm off.

YOU are the one that flamed me with a ridiculing tone the moment I offer constructive criticism about your designs, not knowing anything about me.

This statement provides further evidence that you have no idea about how constructive discussion actually works. Knowing something about you is irrelevant to addressing the points given in your arguments. Likewise, I ridiculed your argument (which is quite distinct from flaming you) by pointing out the ridiculous logic you used in said argument, which is of course fair game. Again, you have it quite backwards. I think you've made it quite clear who here cannot take criticism

And why are you so hung up on Harry Potter? -Not the subject matter!

I was using an analogy that mimicked the form of your argument in order to clearly demonstrate the flaws in said argument. This concept would not be alien to you if you were properly educated in speech, logic, and argumentation.

Since all you want to do is Nerd Rage on anyone that criticizes you

Ah yes, because I am the one shouting and storming off when someone refutes their claims, yes?

You have a lot to learn, young Padawan.

Wow, now I'm apparently his apprentice.

Flag July 10, 2009 12:36 AM PDT

OneWinged4ngel wrote:

Wow, now I'm apparently his apprentice.

They're developing a KotOR MMO, so you better not talk about Star Wars; people will claim you ripped The Old Republic off.

Flag July 10, 2009 12:44 AM PDT
Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Flag July 12, 2009 12:57 PM PDT
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, on-topic, and refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

************

Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
Flag July 12, 2009 1:00 PM PDT

ORC_Nashira wrote:

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, on-topic, and refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

************

Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.

Thank'ee, Nashira.

Flag April 2, 2010 6:36 PM PDT
I'm having some trouble with this. Apparently the first page won't display the full class ability descriptions (cut off at Lay on Hands) and the PDF links are broken.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I would really like to see this variant. Thanks.
Flag May 5, 2010 9:07 PM PDT
Judging from my attempt to quote the first post, it seems the text is gone, not just cut off...

But, no need to worry. Here you go.
Flag July 1, 2010 9:04 PM PDT
Ah, an archived version, thank god!  This Paladin deserves to be saved.
Flag July 7, 2010 9:57 AM PDT
Sweet.  I didn't know you could still find this here.
Flag April 24, 2011 11:02 PM PDT
im looking for a full write up of that amazing paladin im going to toss a loop at my players i send a message to one of the founders but sooner the better ie Mainly i need what your abilities do theres manny oras and i can assume to be variont Loh abilities iv never seen so some rules for all the revised paladin abilites would be great Thank you
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