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I'm going to be saying "Yes," "Yup," and "Agreed" alot in this post, so be warned.

I still hold that a 5-level PrC is much more appropriate for the original vision of the Blue Mage. Perhaps we can make one of those when we finish the core class; that sounds like an enjoyable exercise.[/quote
A PrC of this WOULD be fun to make. Give me a ring when you get around to starting a thread.

My "new image" of the Blue Mage retains a character focused on manipulating and mimicing others' magical abilities, but with the "easier to learn" and "less spell knowledge", he is changing his casting style frequently (though probably maintaining a few favorite or particularly useful spells) as he moves through different areas (which will have a different overall set of its population's magical abilities). Kind of like a magical chameleon.

Chameleon? Hmm... well, that concept is certainly more viable(read: not overpowered) than the original idea.

The hit die should be low; I stand by d4. This is a primary caster not involved in melee, and damage from spells is only an OPTION for him (a rather powerful option, but optional nonetheless). Under controlled circumstances, a BM can expose himself to some fairly nasty damage-dealers with little or no risk of death. He doesn't need more hp.

The thing is, a d6 hit dice means (in this case) not that the Blue Mage is a melee class, but that it's tough. What wizard would willingly undergo meteor storm just to be able to cast it, especially since it might singe their beards? And sorcerers are the pansy rich boys of the bunch who got their power from thier (great great great620th)daddies. But the Blue Mage (even more so now w/ the clause about Saves) keeps a stiff upper lip and takes it. This, to me, merits a d6 HD. It's only an average +1 hp per level, so it's more symbolic than anything else.

INT is hardly a "primary stat". Just because it influences spellcasting doesn't make it primary. 2 points of INT open up ONE additional spell level known? Nice, but hardly critical. A better argument is for the +5% chance to learn a spell (by proxy through Spellcraft), but that pertains to a class ability, not spellcasting itself, and having two "key" stats controlling class abilities is hardly rare among the core classes. Offhand, I'd say the archetypical BM (as I've suggested) stat priority is CHA, INT, WIS, CON, DEX, STR. And my system was designed assuming an INT of 12 at lower levels or 14 at higher levels. That's a far cry from 17, and frankly, I think this is a conservative estimate and actual characters will be more powerful.

A stat is a Primary Casting stat if it affects a) saving throws, b) spells per day, or c) spells known. There are probably other reasons, but I just got FFX-2 and am dying to play it (Zen=me:D )

I'm well aware of the math involved; read my earlier post. The BM is still more powerful than the Sorc for nearly half the progression from 1st to 20th, and the BMs spell slots continue to increase through epic levels, so he will eventually pass the sorceror again (exactly when is entirely dependant on how often the sorc takes Spell Knowledge) -- It's the epic Blue Mage who has the ungodly power to cast nearly every [nonepic] spell in the game (as it should be; massive power should only be the realm of epics).

*whew* I haven't seen the Epic Handbook, so i just assumed the calsses progressed as before. I just didn't want the BM to end up weaker than the Sorc and stay that way.

Question: with this system, is it possbile (not statistically, but under the rules of the class) to learn a 9th level spell at 1st level? I'm not saying this is bad (in fact, I'm thinking it should be allowed), but it needs to be clarified. I mean, obviously a 1st level character probably doesn't have any 9th level spell slots/day (not w/o... a CHA of 28/29), but if a 1st level part was put up against an appropriatly crippled creature that could cast 9th level spells and (by some statistical miracle) a) survived, and b) learned the spell, (s)he could carry it around for a while. Now, obviously, a 9th level spell would take up all the slots of a 1st level character w/ 18 in CHA, but would the class allow it?

Aramek: I really like the changes you've made. Particularly a) 4SP/level, b) keeping d6 HD, c) losing Medium armor, the extra Consentration/Spellcraft points, good Fortitude save, and the idea of Int/CHA as primary spell stats.

But why did you make Knowledge: Creature Magic different from other Knoweldge skills? What you have here isn't a Knoweldge skills but instead what Schmendrick suggested. Knowledge checks are instantanous: you either know it or you don't.

And has anyone considered giving them UMD? Without it, they either: a) pretty much can't use scrolls, wands, etc. of any spells that arn't known, or b) can cast any scroll/wand/etc. for free (ie no rolls). And if you really really really really don't think they need it, then it needs to be clarified. Gotta cover all the bases!

They do not need UMD. They may use all Arcane and Divine equipment, this includes, rods, staves, wands, or scrolls.

Oh ok. That works. Just checking.

Thank you all for your kind words, and your wasted neurons on my little class.

You are very welcome :D.

I fixed what I think the Knowledge: Creature Magic should entail. It still requires 2 checks though, so there is the chance of secondary failure.

I'll post it here for quick reference:

Knowledge: Creature Magic: A Blue Mage possesses the ability to sense inherent magical ability in creatures. A Blue Mage may make a Knowledge: Creature Magic check to determine whether a creature posseses any spells or special abilities. If multiple creatures are present, the Blue Mage must make the check for each creature. If the Blue Mage must be aware of and able to observe a creature checked, he then knows the nature of its abilities. At 1st level, the Blue Mage gains a +1 bonus to this Knowledge check. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels.

2 checks? You mean 1 check for each creature? Or 1 Check roll and then still later a Spellcraft check to leanr it?

I didn't get time to read this whole thread exhaustively, but I got through the first page.
Am I right in thinking you have to get shot by a spell and have it affect you to have a chance to learn it? Given the Hit Dice that have been bandied around then the Blue Mage should pretty much avoid trying to learn a spell until about 3rd level at least or he'll just die.
I don't know about the rest of you, but that seems to be a pretty big drawback to me:-

BBEG casts Lightning Bolt
Blue Mage jumps in
Blue Mage get's anihilated
Rest of party sweeps up Blue Mage's pile of ash.
Player rolls up Fighter instead

By simple logic the Blue Mage will not have access to certain spells - the ones that kill outright, although the damage spells at higher level can do that so it's going to be very difficult for a Blue Mage to learn high level magic. He's going to be an assist character, lots of hastes, spider climbs, blurs etc on the fighters.

...Which is why Succesful Will/Fort saves should count as "affected!" You could make the case that this is one of the most powerful balacning factors, but the fact that the Blue Mage in it's current incarnation has far fewing Spells Known slots than the Sorcerer is in and of itself a pretty powerful balancing factor. I dunno about you, but beign barred from pretty much all save-or-die spells is a really really bad limitation, especially since the Will Save means that you were hit be the spell and overcame it. [/rant]

From the 3.5 SRD
Saving Throw Types: The three different kinds of saving throws are Fortitude, Reflex, and Will:
Fortitude: These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health. Apply your Constitution modifier to your Fortitude saving throws.
Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.
Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects. Apply your Wisdom modifier to your Will saving throws.

Notice Specifically Willl and Fort save descriptions? Fort: "stand up against," Will: "resistence to." Relfex, i agree, should not count unless you take at least some damage (eg fireball), but Will and Fort things are different. Usually, spells that require a Reflex save are Instantaneosu Area effect or use a (Ranged) Touch attack. Fort/Will often (read: nearly always) hit automatically.

Upon further reveiw, (and this is probibly going to cause much scruitiny), Even if a save is made, and the save (Negates), it still has a chance of being learned.

This does not count for Reflex (Negate). Since that means the Blue Mage got totally out of the way.

Fort (Neg) = Still Affects BM
Ref (Neg) = Not affects BM
Will (Neg) = Still affects BM.

So, ruleth meith, a Reflex (Neg) is the ONLY save that If made does not count as "Experencing" the spell.

E Pludibus Magum.