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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 12:26AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2006
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Most people think the fighter can't be playable at higher levels, but that is not the truth.
Strawman. Very few people believe that. What they believe is that the Fighter becomes more and more inflexible compared to his party members, and tends to become weaker and weaker compared to his party members as well especially in situations where his particular strengths don't work. They also believe that he's actually a very poor class for doing what he's advertised as being able to do, and that despite the reputation of the Fighter as a beginner class (a holdover from 2Ed) Fighters are in fact one of the easiest classes to screw up in a long term way.
But I don't see anyone claiming the Fighter is unplayable... heck, I've personally proved that the Commoner can be made capable of soloing equal CR encounters at the highest non epic levels. "Playable" is not the same as "balanced to the rest of the classes."
JaronK
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 4:59AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2008
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Strawman. Very few people believe that. What they believe is that the Fighter becomes more and more inflexible compared to his party members, and tends to become weaker and weaker compared to his party members as well especially in situations where his particular strengths don't work. They also believe that he's actually a very poor class for doing what he's advertised as being able to do, and that despite the reputation of the Fighter as a beginner class (a holdover from 2Ed) Fighters are in fact one of the easiest classes to screw up in a long term way.
But I don't see anyone claiming the Fighter is unplayable... heck, I've personally proved that the Commoner can be made capable of soloing equal CR encounters at the highest non epic levels. "Playable" is not the same as "balanced to the rest of the classes."
JaronK
Unplayable is the wrong word. I guess I should have said undesirable, but as far as balance every almost every class is seen as to strong or to weak so balance is a word I try not to use.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 10:37AM
#33
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Here's a radical idea...what if I give my fighters access to an attribute point on dead levels? Esp. level 5, when everyone else is getting stuff?
M.
HEMA and History Student.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 11:10AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jan 13, 2007
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Here's a radical idea...what if I give my fighters access to an attribute point on dead levels? Esp. level 5, when everyone else is getting stuff?
Hm. It's definitely a "goody" that's hard to come by. It does nothing to address the fighter's lack of options, though. You can dump all of those stat bonuses into whatever single thing you want, and it will either be ridiculously over the top, or not. If it is too much, then it needs to be toned down. However, when you get the number of point boosts low enough not to be too many to dump in one stat, then spreading those few points out across multiple stats would have a minimal impact on those stats, discouraging, once again, a fighter's diversity.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 12:41PM
#35
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Hm, well, it wouldn't be at every "dead" level, if by dead level we mean a level where we get no new things to play with.
By default we get a feat every 3 levels and a stat point at every 4 levels. So if I increase the number of class skills a fighter can get (I mean they should really get practically every PHYSICAL feat, try learning to fence with the longsword and you'll begin to see how many of those really fit in), and giving him a new stat point at 5, 9, 13, etc would help a little (that would be one after every level you normally get it). I considered increasing WILL saves, because WILL would also factor into the intensity of training, representing focus, internal calm, etc.
Maybe Iron Will should be an automatic starting feat...
M.
HEMA and History Student.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 12:48PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2004
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Fighter 9 still qualifies as a dead level even if you get your 9th level feat, because your class doesn't give you anything. What if you multiclass?
And anyway, it still wouldn't help the fact that the fighter class doesn't give you much to help the other characters outside of combat. The skills he has are either useless at higher levels (outside of DM pandering, such as covering large areas of high-altitude terrain in AMFs so that Climb skill will finally come in handy), or use a fighter's only real dump stat and really aren't very useful anyway (Intimidate? Gee, I have a 6 Cha. Sorry 'bout that).
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 2:26PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2006
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Remember the flaws I posted in here a while back? The flaws with the Fighter and the flaws with D&D 3.5 that exacerbate the problem can't be fixed by handing out a few +1 to ability score bumps.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 2:32PM
#38
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This is true BK. Well, I did say I'd expand their skills, and I've been DMing where strength can replace charisma in intimidate (shake the bastard). I mean, the class IS a combat class, he is a *fighter* after all, a typical European-style brainless sword swinger.
What are the 3.5 flaws btw? Is it just the melee sucking?
M.
HEMA and History Student.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 2:41PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2006
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Melee sucking is part of it, but the bigger flaws with the system at large is that it favors magic, and it assumes that all characters will be using magic in some form after a certain level. The inherent need for magical items to survive and the fact that over 99.999% of magical effects granted by magical items can be duplicated by spells. Oh, and one more: Spellcasters gain power on an exponential curve. They suck within the first three levels, start to look a little better at roughly level 5, and then they overtake everyone with incredible speed. Everything that isn't a spellcaster (except ToB, and only sort of) gains power on a linear curve. They start a little stronger than spellcasters most of the time, but they don't become stronger nearly as fast. Oh, and just so you can get a look at what Tome of Battle classes, the Warblade specifically, are capable of and how they are much less flawed than the Fighter: The Tome of Battle: Book of Nine SwordsThe WarbladeSome maneuvers from the Iron Heart discipline (a Warblade's bread and butter)For great justice.
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5 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2008 - 3:01PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2008
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Also, feats. They're so narrow that you need many to do anything, and have to have many sources to get them from just to have enough worthwhile ones. Even then you are a one trick pony with a decent trick and useless otherwise. If it counters your trick, or you don't have one you fail and should go home. Note your trick will be countered early and often, often by complete accident. Either the DM specifically coddles you by nerfing encounters, or you simply cannot keep up.
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