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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 9:40PM
#1101
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It's insane how the Thug variant is contested and then the Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem variants get tossed out like nothing.
But it's true, the comparison doesn't take charging into account. But I don't want to assume a charge can happen each round, and this comparison (and the claim of barbarian as Damage King) were around even before the Lion Totem/Pounce variant, so while the claim may be different now, this comparison was done simply between Rage and Weapon Focus. The comparison also doesn't take into account that the barbarian is ahead in that to-hit and damage (barely mind you) only once or twice a day without Extra Rage.
Of course, a fighter can get Pounce from one manifestation of Psionic Lion's Charge for the rest of his career so...
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 9:50PM
#1102
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Date Joined:
Dec 30, 2008
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The problem with the Fighter/Barbarian comparison is that simply thwacking things is not how it works.
Run it with Lion Totem and Shock Trooper in the mix, and the results look a little difference. Here, at level 6, showing only differences:
Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian: 3 attacks at (Strength bonus+2)*1.5 damage, +12 damage per attack from Power Attack/Shock Trooper
Fighter: 1 Attack (charging) at +1 additional bonus to hit (Weapon Focus), (Strength Bonus*1.5+2 damage), +24 damage from Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack.
Notice how the Barbarian wins by a mile when we play him right (namely, charging). If the Fighter just stands and hacks, he won't be close (more attacks, but much lower damage). As he levels up, the Barbarian just pulls away more. Charging is easy to do, doesn't require too many feats (any non Fighter can do it), and Pounce is the big ability for charging.
JaronK
Just so we are clear, you are mention in an earlier post about an example needing several variants, and you are posting one here that requires two variants compared to a non-variant.
You are also comparing a barbarian who uses 3 feats (power attack, shock trooper, Improved Bull Rush, at 6th level (all feats unless he is human) -- with a fighter who uses 5 feats (power attack, shock trooper, improved bull rush, weapon focus, leap attack, specialization) which leaves him 1 free (2 if human).
[EDIT] Removing bad numbers. I am quite out of practice at this, and guess I shouldn't do this after midnight ...
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 9:54PM
#1103
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Just so it doesn't become a focus of any response, Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge shunts the penalty to attack from Power Attack to AC, so you shouldn't deduct the -6 penalty from their attack rolls. You did it for both the fighter and the barbarian, so it shouldn't matter much I don't think, but its better to be accurate. Less room for people to get easily distracted  . EDIT: Also, you mentioned the fighter's bonus from Weapon Focus but I think you forgot to actually add it in the calculations. EDIT 2: Your barbarian without the Whirling Frenzy should still get another attack from BAB. I think the final damage would be ~17.55. Check me though because damage calculations have never been my strong point.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 10:02PM
#1104
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2006
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It's insane how the Thug variant is contested and then the Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem variants get tossed out like nothing.
Either we use variants, or we don't. You brought them in, after all, so I went with it.
Of course, a fighter can get Pounce from one manifestation of Psionic Lion's Charge for the rest of his career so...
That one's a known mistake (like Monks being nonproficient with unarmed strikes, or War Clerics not gaining Weapon Focus at level 1 due to lack of prerequisites) so trying to use that is silly.
And yeah, Meyer, you screwed up on Shock Trooper. There's no PA penalty at all. Rerun your numbers without that penalty. Meanwhile, you brought up variants, so don't whine about them... feel free to make your Fighter a Thug if you like. Also, you forgot that the Barbarian still gets two attacks even when not raging, so he's still got more damage even without rage. He just plain wins this game.
JaronK
JaronK
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 10:06PM
#1105
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Either we use variants, or we don't. You brought them in, after all, so I went with it.
Wrong. See, we don't complain about variants. You do. That's the difference. We complain about your double standards. You use variants constantly in your examples. That's fine. I assume if we're not core, then we go all out.
But you then turn around and try to call us out on using variants. So the ultimatum is yours. Use them or don't, but if you do (and you do), don't complain when others do.
That one's a known mistake (like Monks being nonproficient with unarmed strikes, or War Clerics not gaining Weapon Focus at level 1 due to lack of prerequisites) so trying to use that is silly.
What mistake is known by who?
And yeah, Meyer, you screwed up on Shock Trooper. There's no PA penalty at all. Rerun your numbers without that penalty. Meanwhile, you brought up variants, so don't whine about them... feel free to make your Fighter a Thug if you like. Also, you forgot that the Barbarian still gets two attacks even when not raging, so he's still got more damage even without rage. He just plain wins this game.
So run the numbers. The penalty was applied to both classes, not simply the barbarian, and I don't think the second attack boosts the damage up that high because of its chances to hit. Instead of simply claiming victory, run the numbers.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 10:18PM
#1106
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Meyer, here are the numbers (yours are wrong):
Assuming barbarian isn't raging just for kicks.
Barbarian to hit: (6 bab, 1 masterwork, 5 strength, 2 charging) 14/9
Fighter to hit: (6 bab, 1 masterwork, 5 strength, 2 charging, 1 focus) 15
Barbarian damage: (2d6 base 7 str 12 PA) avg 26
Fighter damage: (2d6 base 7 str 18 PA 2 spec) avg 34
Vs AC 20:
Barbarian: .75 + .5 = 125% of 26 or 32 average
Fighter: .8 = 80% of 34 or 29 average
The barbarian wins while NOT raging versus AC 20.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 10:22PM
#1107
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Archer you beat me to it. Though my numbers were:
Raging Barbarian: 60
Fighter: 32.8
Non-Raging Barbarian: 33.75
Fighter: 32.8
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4 years ago ::
Dec 30, 2008 - 10:26PM
#1108
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Archer you beat me to it. Though my numbers were:
Raging Barbarian: 60
Fighter: 32.8
Non-Raging Barbarian: 33.75
Fighter: 32.8
Odds are that the difference is because I rounded for simplicity (didn't feel the need to pull up a calculator). Also, are we assuming a +1 weapon?
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4 years ago ::
Dec 31, 2008 - 2:34AM
#1109
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Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2006
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I'd be suprised to find any game that didn't have any house rules and did everything RAW. D&D, like Monopoly, is one of those games where virtually no one plays by the published rules alone.
The difference is that in Monopoly none of the little symbols you move around needs coddling by default.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 31, 2008 - 5:37AM
#1110
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Date Joined:
Dec 30, 2008
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All, thank you for pointing out my mistake. However, I am confused as to the average damage ... is it This:
Fighter: 1 Attack (charging) at +1 additional bonus to hit (Weapon Focus), (Strength Bonus*1.5+2 damage), +24 damage from Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack.
or This:
Barbarian damage: (2d6 base 7 str 12 PA) avg 26
Fighter damage: (2d6 base 7 str 18 PA 2 spec) avg 34
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