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Yes It's Another . . . Fighter Fix.
2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 8:48AM #1
ff6shadow
Posts: 7,689
Date Joined: 09/10/04
Yes, I'm posting yet another fighter alteration. I'm sure its been done dozens of times, but none the less, here is mine. I had this posted in a Redgar's Repository post a while back. It was fairly well recieved there, so I figured it was time to bring it out into the more general populace.

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (tactics and war) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

[code]Table: The Fighter
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +1 Bonus feat, Weapon Aptitude
2nd +2 +3 +0 +1 Bonus feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +2 Height of Battle 1/encounter
4th +4 +4 +1 +2 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +3 Mastery of Battle
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +3 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +3
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +4 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +4 Height of Battle 2/encounter
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +5 Bonus feat, Mastery of Battle
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +5
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +6 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +6
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +6 Bonus feat
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +7 Height of Battle 3/encounter, Mastery of Battle
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +7 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +8
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +8 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +9
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +9 Bonus feat, Mastery of Battle[/code]
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every other fighter level thereafter. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Weapon Aptitude: You training with a wide range of weaponry and tactics gives you great flexibility to adjust your fighting styles and tactics. Each morning you may spend 1 hours in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice section to make this change.

You can adjust any number of feats this way, and you don't have to adjust all of them in the same way. However you can't change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet the prerequisites for some other feat you possess. For example, if you have Weapon Focus (Longsword) and Weapon Specialization (Longsword), you cannot change your Weapon Focus without also changing your Weapon Specialization in the same way.

Height of Battle (Ex): Once per encounter, a fighter of 3rd level or higher can draw on his unmatched combat experience for a burst of inspired effort that lesser warriors simply cannot match. As an immediate action, he can gain a bonus on all attack and damage rolls, or a bonus to Armor class and all saving throws (this ability can be used even after an attack or save has already been rolled, possible negating harm that would have otherwise affected the fighter). This bonus is equal to 1/2 his fighter class level and lasts 1 round.

At 9th level, and at every six levels there after, the fighter may use height of battle one additional time per encounter. He cannot use height of battle more than once per round.

Mastery of Battle: Each time you gain this ability you may choose a single ability from the following list. Some abilities have prerequisites. Unless noted otherwise, you may not choose an ability multiple times.
[code] Ambidexterity
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15
Your two-weapon fighting penalties are reduced by -2.
Bonus Feat
You may gain any feat for which you qualify. You may choose this ability multiple times.
Martial Mastery
Your initiator level is increases by 2. You immedietely learn two maneuvers as if you hade taken
the Martial Study Feat. You also learn one stance as though you had taken the Martial Stance
feat. Finally, maneuvers gained through this ability and the Martial Study feat, can be recovered
one at a time by making a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the maneuver) as a swift
action. You may choose this ability multiple times
Mastery of Disarming
You gain a +4 bonus on Disarm checks
Mastery of Dodging
You gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This is lost if you are
denied your Dex bonus to AC
Mastery of Grappling
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple
You gain a +4 bonus on Grapple checks.
Mastery of Grappling 2
Prerequisite: Mastery of Grappling
You are considered one size category large for the
purpose of grappling.
Mastery of Range
Your precision range is expanded by 30ft.
Mastery of Survival
You gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws, and 1 extra HP
per HD. This may be selected multiple times.
Mastery of Tripping
You gain a +4 bonus on trip attempts.
Mastery of War
You gain a +1 bonus on all attacks. This may be selected multiple times.
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Prerequisite: Mastery of Range, Mastery of War
You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for using a
ranged weapon, and threaten all squares within 10ft of
you when using a ranged weapon.
Shield Mastery
You gain a +3 bonus to shield AC when wielding and light
or heavy shield or a tower shield.
Swift Strikes
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Dex 15
When making an attack as a standard action, you may
make one extra attack at a -5 penalty. If you fighting
with two weapon, you may also make an attack with your
off-hand weapon.
True Power Attack
Prerequisite: Mastery of War, Power Attack
When using the Power Attack feat, you deal damage on a
2 for 1 ratio with a one handed weapon. In addition, you are permitted
to use the Power Attack feat with a light weapon, gaining
damage on a 1 for 1 ratio.[/code]
This addresses several issues with the Fighter. The boosted skill point and extra skills give him some extra capability outside of combat, able to perform first aid, have decent enemy detection capabilities, and even resist being feinted. The boosted Will save makes the fighter less vulnerable to mental assaults, returning a hint of the fighters ability to shrug off enemy abilities from the older editions.

Height of Battle functions on the same line as the barbarians rage, the paladin's smite, or the rangers combat enhancement spells. It lets the fighter exceed his normal limits, to have an immediate surge in offensive capabilities, or be able to shrug off an otherwise lethal combination of attacks. As its name implies, its best used at the height of the battle, to shift the tide in the other direction.

Battle Mastery is designed to enhance the fighter towards his chosen specialty, or to just enhance generalism. Mastery of Disarming, Grappling 1 and 2, and Tripping enhance a combat options that otherwise lose much of the capability at high levels. Mastery of Dodging, Survival, and War enhance the fighters general capabilities and will likely be the most chosen options.

Ambidexterity allows a fighter to access unpenalized two-weapon fighting as early as 5th level.

Mastery of Range plays directly to a multiclass Rogue/Fighter but also brings Point Blank shot into play more often, and interacts well with the Ranged Disarm feat. Also, leading into Ranged Weapon Mastery is also a benefit since Ranged Weapon Mastery is extremely valuable to any archer.

True power Attack both emulates the Improved Power Attack class feature of some prestige classes, and allows something unique; the ability to Power Attack with a light weapon.

Shield Mastery combined with True Power Attack, allows a Sword and Board fighter a chance to compete with other weapon choices again.

Bonus Feat lets you gain additional feats if you prefer.

Finally, Swift Strikes is something no other fighting type character can emulate, allowing a fighter to maintain multiple hit capability that he relies upon for damage, while still being a mobile character.

Basically, it addresses the fighters lack of personal, nonmagical defense, while providing him unique abilities that no one else has.

Edit: I removed the ability to true power attack to increase the damage output of a two-handed weapon. Alot of people seemed to have power level issues with this, and I'm bbeginning to agree. So out it goes. Also, addin Power Attack as a prerequisite for it. Makes no sense otherwise.


Edit: Altered True Power Attack to not modify two-handed weapons. Idea courtesy of Talisman. - 12/27/07
Edit: Just a few changes - 01/01/08
  • Spelling
  • Increase Mastery of Disarming to +4 (idea for boost courtesy of Talisman)
  • Increased Mastery of Tripping to +4 (idea for boost courtesy of Talisman)
  • Increase Mastery of Grappling to +4 (idea for boost courtesy of Talisman)
  • Increased Shield Mastery to +3
  • Slight Formatting Changes


Edit: - 02/07/08
  • Mastery of Grapplingrequires Improved Grapple
  • Mastery of Grappling can only be seleted once
  • Slight formatting changes


Edit: - 02/07/08
  • Added Martial Mastery
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 9:14AM #2
vorpo
Posts: 173
Date Joined: 08/25/07
First, take everything except for the table out of the code block. Second, bold the entries for better readability

Pls drop me a note in the Peach market if you want this class to be listed there (my sig). Make sure you link it when you post
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 9:44AM #3
IdleAltruism
Posts: 83
Date Joined: 11/28/06

ff6shadow wrote:

Yes, I'm posting yet another fighter alteration. I'm sure its been done dozens of times, but none the less, here is mine. I had this posted in a Redgar's Repository post a while back. It was fairly well recieved there, so I figured it was time to bring it out into the more general populace.


This biggest problem with fighter "fixes" is they never truly fix the fighter. Compare the fighter to all other non-casting classes and they stack up rather nicely. In core the fighter is generally a better combatant then the other non-casters. Out of core they still do well, even against a warblade. The whole "Fighters suck" is a lack of understand of the fighter. The fighters capabilities have been drastically improved with the edition of splatbooks, such as the PHB2.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=929813
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=781643


ff6shadow wrote:

Hit Die: d10.


This is already better then 9/10 fighter remakes on these boards. You wouldn't believe how many think that everyone with heavy armor proficiency should have a d12.

ff6shadow wrote:

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str),
Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str),
Knowledge (tactics and war) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex),
Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Knowledge tactics and war doesn't exist as far as I know. If you're going to add a new skill I suggest attaching it to the post. Skills aren't bad, but I see them being shoehorned with spot and listen.

My suggestion is dropping it back down to 2+int(alot of fighters will be human and have 13 int). It also doesn't make much sense as to why they have so many skills in comparison to a paladin whos dedication brings similar lack of points.

ff6shadow wrote:

Height of Battle (Ex): Once per day a fighter of 3rd level or higher can
draw on his unmatched combat experience for a burst of inspired effort that
lesser warriors simply cannot match. As an immediate action, he can gain a
bonus on all attack and damage rolls, or a bonus to Armor class and all saving
throws (this ability can be used even after an attack or save has already
been rolled, possible negating harm that would have otherwise affected the
fighter). This bonus is equal to 1/2 his fighter class level and lasts 1 round.

At 9th level, and at every six levels there after, the fighter may use height of
battle one additional time per day. He cannot use height of battle more than
once per encounter


This ability is rather weak early and somewhat impotent late level. I guess if you really needed to hit it would be nice. I don't like it; it's to much like smite.
It doesn't add any options to the fighter. The biggest opponents of fighters argument is their lack of versatility. This just lets them hit hard, which they can already do.

ff6shadow wrote:

Mastery of Battle: Each time you gain this ability you may choose a
single ability from the following list. Some abilities have prerequisites. Unless
noted otherwise, you may choose an ability multiple time.
Ambidexterity
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15
Your two-weapon fighting penalties are reduced by -2.
This cannot reduce the penalties past 0.
Bonus Feat
You may gain any feat for which you qualify.
Mastery of Disarming
You gain a +2 bonus on Disarm checks
Mastery of Dodging
You gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This is lost if you are
denied your Dex bonus to AC
Mastery of Grappling
You gain a +2 bonus on Grapple checks. This may be
chosen two times.
Mastery of Grappling 2
Prerequisite: Mastery fo Grappling
You are considered one size category large for the
purpose of grappling. This may only be selected once.
Mastery of Range
Your precision range is expanded by 30ft
Mastery of Survival
You gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws, and 1 extra HP
per HD.
Mastery of Tripping
You gain a +2 bonus on trip attempts.
Mastery of War
You gain a +1 bonus on all attacks
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Prerequisite: Mastery of Range, Mastery of War
You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for using a
ranged weapon, and threaten all squares within 10ft of
you when using a ranged weapon.
Shield Mastery
You gain a +2 bonus to shield AC when wielding and light
or heavy shield or a tower shield.
Swift Strikes
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Dex 15
When making an attack as a standard action, you may
make one extra attack at a -5 penalty. If you fighting
with two weapon, you may also make an attack with your
off-hand weapon.
True Power Attack
Prerequisite: Mastery of War
When using the Power Attack feat, you deal damage on a
2 for 1 ratio with a one handed weapon and a 3 for 1 ratio
with a two handed weapon. In addition, you are permitted
to use the Power Attack feat with a light weapon, gaining
damage on a 1 for 1 ratio.


Again you're just specializing the fighter even further. Some of these abilities are to powerful, like True Power Attack. Chargers can already produce insane numbers. The fighter can do good damage. Allowing them more isn't necessary.

ff6shadow wrote:

This addresses several issues with the Fighter. The boosted skill point and extra skills give him some extra capability outside of combat, able to perform first aid, have decent enemy detection capabilities, and even resist being feinted. The boosted Will save makes the fighter less vulnerable to mental assaults, returning a hint of the fighters ability to shrug off enemy abilities from the older editions.


There are several ways to get decent skills. Bob Loblaw does a fantastic job at with the fighters and skillpoints, its in the link I posted above.

ff6shadow wrote:

Ambidexterity allows a fighter to access unpenalized two-weapon fighting as early as 5th level.


Biggest problem with alot of these abilities, no one will use them. By the time you get them a +2 to hit is just another feat or magic item. Alot of them just don't fit with a fighter. Fighters make horrible TWFs, grapplers, and alot of fighters just won't have 15 dex.

ff6shadow wrote:

Basically, it addresses the fighters lack of personal, nonmagical defense, while providing him unique abilities that no one else has.


That's the thing. Fighters have unique builds that are very hard for others to replicate. Paladins/Rangers/Barbarians all have this lack of non-magical defense.

The biggest problem with fighter remakes is they don't address the other non-casters. It seems to get ignored that they are on an even footing. The barbarian does a little bit more damage, but has less versatility. The paladin has restricted offensive capabilities and a complete lack of class abilities after around level 5. The ranger has nice abilities and skills, but comes nowhere near a fighter in combat. Monks and rogues compare similarly.

They are well balanced towards one another. To remake the fighter you should remake all the non-casters.

Your class just gives the fighters more power in comparison to the rest. The fighter takes a little bit of experience to make effective, but the point is they can. Generally the notion of fighters being underpowered is based on a biased perspective based on rumors and/or personal experience with inexperienced fighters(which can be the case for any class).

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 11:08AM #4
Qube
Posts: 2,568
Date Joined: 11/01/02
I don't have much to add: IdleAltruism is totally correct, thow I fail my diplomacy check:
- this is not a fix, but breaks the fighter compared to other melleers (in my sig is a link, showing that the fighter is a warrior then the barbarian ...)
- 4+INT skills is bullox (why more skills then cleric or sorcerer ? )
- why listen and spot? guards are warriors, not fighter. You want something like listen and spot on your class skill list? make a feat called "guard duty"
Bronze in the XDMC 14: a small campaign for beginning DMs/players. link
XDMC 15: Ranger Animal Companion: the Miniature Giant Space Hamster link
XMDC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 12:13PM #5
aelryinth
Posts: 2,776
Date Joined: 07/08/01
Spot and Listen because it's a fighter's job to locate and identify enemy combatants, analyze them for weaknesses, and kill them. Kindly also note that the core Archer build is a fighter, and should have peerless visual ability.

4 skill points because a Fighter is the Olympian of combat in all its forms, and will pursue martial mastery via skills as surely as his BAB going up. The cleric and the sorceror rely on their spells. The fighter relies on himself, and that includes his skills...they are FAR more imiportant to him then such things are to the Cleric or Sorceror.

I note you didn't include Wizard. I personally think Wizard should get +2 skill points per level also, but restricted to Knowledge skills. They are the sages of the game, and shouldn't need a 22 Int to get as many skill points as a Rogue with 10 Int.

as for the rest of it, it's a Fighter Fix. There are many, and he feels that his addresses the parts of the Fighter he wants fixed. Given what casters are capable of, it's hard to call a Fighter 'broken' in any respect. And if playing a Fighter means you suddenly don't call him inferior to a Barbarian or something, is that a bad thing?

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade

The Lockdown F/20 iconic build    http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 1:11PM #6
dawnbringer
Posts: 597
Date Joined: 06/14/06
The point is, Fighters are not inferior to any combat class. So doing a "Fighter Fix" is stupid and useless.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 6:08PM #7
aelryinth
Posts: 2,776
Date Joined: 07/08/01
Happily, he's not doing it compared to other melee classes. He's doing it to set it more equal to casters and skill monkeys.

And from that standpoint, the build is neither stupid nor useless. His entire mastery series is nothing more then a series of additional feats allowing more versatility or specializing as he might like, akin to granting a feat every level instead of every other, but at least he took the time to define exactly what they do.

None of which is saying that the Barbarian might not need a leg up to compare to spellcasters, but most people already give the Barbarian more credit for versatility and power then the fighter anyways...and outside of pure damage dealing, that's truth.

===Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade

The Lockdown F/20 iconic build    http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 7:18PM #8
ff6shadow
Posts: 7,689
Date Joined: 09/10/04
First, thanks all for the input.

IdleAltruism, Height of Battle is far from impotent at late level. It's actually only weak at early levels. A +10 bonus to AC and saving throws is the difference between a dragon completely mauling you or a wizard dominating you, and surviving or resisting the spell. And the Mastery of Battle gives the fighter something unique to him as a class ability. Currently, all a fighter gets as class abilities are bonus feats, most of which anybody can qualify for. Lastly, I have gone over all of the base classes for my campaigns. Eventually, I intend to post most of them for input and suggestions.

Qube, why 4 skill points a level? The same thing could be asked of the barbarian. Like aelryinth says, the spellcasters can rely on their spells to make up for the lack of skills. And spot and listen are for locating enemy combatants. A warrior who can't find his enemies is next to worthless.

Anyways, I appreciate the criticism, and hope to hear more from the board.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 25, 2007 - 6:46AM #9
ff6shadow
Posts: 7,689
Date Joined: 09/10/04
Nobody has anymore comments?
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 25, 2007 - 10:52AM #10
LoneFlame
Posts: 164
Date Joined: 02/14/07
The Weapon Aptitude thing was a nice addition(I think I'll incorporate it into my remake). I don't know why I never thought to use it before. So, add that to the following...

First, give the Fighter the skill selection of the Commoner(yes, it's better than Fighter's), with the option of subbing out Ride & Handle Animal for Tumble & Balance.

Then either do 1 of 2 things for the Fighter. 1) give it feats at every lv, or, if that's too much, 2) use the official dead lv filler material.

If you want spiffy non-feats from there, use some of the existing variants for Fighter.

Note: I would suggest amending the Sneak Attack Fighter variant to not include the extra Fighter feats added on. Also, the Thug & Sneak Attack variants would still combine seamlessly & wouldn't affect the add-ons to the class.


Edit: Mine's got more stuff for it than what I suggested, but my recommendations are a good start. If you find that more is needed after test plays, then by all means, add more.
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