Making that list apply to the War Domain's granted power makes sense, but the rules don't say it does. *shrug*
I know that I saw it officially mentioned somewhere, but for the life of me I can't find it. However, the list originally came from Defenders of the Faith under Weapon of the Deity spell (page 92):
I know that I saw it officially mentioned somewhere, but for the life of me I can't find it. However, the list originally came from Defenders of the Faith under Weapon of the Deity spell (page 92):
Now hold on a minute. Complete Adventurer says that Helpful gives you the 10% discount. Fanatic is a step above Helpful, and Complete Adventurer most certainly does not say that 10% is the limit. That bolded part isn't written in anywhere. And remember, since Fanatic isn't in the core books, Complete Adventurer would not address it at all (at the time, no book would reference things other than Core books without reprinting all of the information). As such, Fanatic is simply not addressed in that book.
so Fanatic/discount is an other example of Rules Void (see the other thread): (1) RAW discusses symelar examples (helpfull) (2) it does not adress fanatics, which makes it RAIITAYCPIWN
JaronK wrote:
I think you got it the other way around: people have never heard that a stray arrow can kill someone. Compare it to cars in the real world (the car represents the arrow, the person on the sidewalk represents the bystander who is not in the way of the car). Bad metaphor. Why? A car is big and loud. A bystander can tell whether it's veering towards them. Arrows? Not so much.
not when he comes from behind you: you can't here if the car will drive past you, or if he's will drive into you.
JaronK]Also, cars don't "miss" the street on a regular basis. Arrows do.
I have no idea what you are talking about ... - (perhaps assumed) DnD rule: arrows that fly past you don't hit you - reality rule: car on the road does not hit you when you are on the sidewalk ---> so I assume that commoners (who will experience the DnD rule as reality) will behave in the same as we behave to wrote:
Also, cars don't "miss" the street on a regular basis. Arrows do.[/quote] I have no idea what you are talking about ... - (perhaps assumed) DnD rule: arrows that fly past you don't hit you - reality rule: car on the road does not hit you when you are on the sidewalk ---> so I assume that commoners (who will experience the DnD rule as reality) will behave in the same as we behave to cars...
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For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.
Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
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Qube are you going to say that if a commoner is in between the arrows and their intended target and you are DM your commoners just keep buying things at the market as if nothing is going on, and make no attempt to get out of the way? I dont need a counter argument because this is a simple yes or not question.
Qube are you going to say that if a commoner is in between the arrows and their intended target and you are DM your commoners just keep buying things at the market as if nothing is going on, and make no attempt to get out of the way? I dont need a counter argument because this is a simple yes or not question.
If I were DM, the answer is YES.
Now, I will ask you a very very similar question
Wraithstrike, are you going to say that if a PC is in between the arrows and their intended target and you are DM your PCs just keep doing things in the combat as if nothing is going on, and make no attempt to get out of the way?
Hint: The answer to both questions should be the same for the same reason.
Wraithstrike, are you going to say that if a PC is in between the arrows and their intended target and you are DM your PCs just keep doing things in the combat as if nothing is going on, and make no attempt to get out of the way?
Hint: The answer to both questions should be the same for the same reason.
Two different things going on here. When the PCs are in combat, they are trying to avoid being hit by stray arrows, sword swings, etc. It's why they keep their Dexterity bonuses. When arrows start flying in a market, everyone notices and clears out of the way. Commoners are not trained for combat and even if they were, if they are at the market, they certainly aren't prepared for it. I can see rare cases when someone doesn't clear out, but those would be very rare indeed. If you've seen Unleashed, that would be a good example (except he was trained for combat).
Without line of sight, you can't target the enemy in a crowd anyway (DMG page 21). Of course, if you have the commoners react in a more realistic fashion, you can now target the enemy. Now which option would you choose?
Qube are you going to say that if a commoner is in between the arrows and their intended target and you are DM your commoners just keep buying things at the market as if nothing is going on, and make no attempt to get out of the way? I dont need a counter argument because this is a simple yes or not question.
If I DM RAW, and by RAW, the commoner has 0% on getting hit, I don't see why not.
Then again, I do not DM RAW, I DM "Rules As Qube dictates them and if you don't like it, you can always start a game - I'll gladly make a character" :D
edit: especially as I see markets as very intense places (with preforming artists, merchants yelling, ...) ... most of the commoners won't even notice a single arrow ...
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For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.
Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment. Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?
XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced) XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules - Introduction & table of content
Two different things going on here. When the PCs are in combat, they are trying to avoid being hit by stray arrows, sword swings, etc. It's why they keep their Dexterity bonuses. When arrows start flying in a market, everyone notices and clears out of the way. Commoners are not trained for combat and even if they were, if they are at the market, they certainly aren't prepared for it. I can see rare cases when someone doesn't clear out, but those would be very rare indeed. If you've seen Unleashed, that would be a good example (except he was trained for combat).
Without line of sight, you can't target the enemy in a crowd anyway (DMG page 21). Of course, if you have the commoners react in a more realistic fashion, you can now target the enemy. Now which option would you choose?
A commoner with a dex of 10 (no dex bonus), a flatfooted commoner with a dex of 10 (no dex penalty) and a flatfooted pc with a dex of 20 (+5 dex) ... have the same dex bonus to avoid being hit with the arrow,
Sorry, don't have a 3.5 DMG (only have advanced dungeons and dragons DMG, 2.0, skills and powers, and 3.0 -- for 3.5, i rely upon buddies and SRD) -- so I cannot definitively respond to your DMG comment ... however,
1) Line of sight, if there are different rules for shooting into a crowd than vs shooting at monsters in melee, then maybe the reason why the commoners run is because if they don't, then the guards shoot them, to eliminate the line-of-sight blocking ... 2) Line of sight ------------------A CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC ------------------T If the (A)rcher can shoot at the (T)arget without a chance of hitting the (C)ommoner, then, why is the commoner needing to run?
2a) Line of sight ----A ----P ----M
Is there a difference between 2 and 2a rules-wised? 2a, the (A)rcher wants to shoot the (M)onster, but there is a (P)C in the way, providing a +4 AC bonus due to cover.
This sub-debate is as follows (as i understand it): One Group: Since the DnD universe (other than a variant rule) is set up so that archers cannot hit the wrong target, there is no rules-based reason for people to fear misfires. Other Group: In the real world, there is a chance of hitting the wrong target, therefore, although there might be no chance in DnD of hitting the wrong target, the inhabitants of the DnD universe do not know that.
To which I call poppy-cocks ... there is no reason for the DnD inhabitants to think of the possibility of being hit by a missed arrow. It is ludicrous to the extreme to imagine that DnD NPCs can imagine reality and react accordingly even when the reality is not reflected in the game.
However, in a campaign that switched from 3.0 to 3.5, I could see some of the older NPCs flinching ... (this part is supposed to be funny)
A commoner with a dex of 10 (no dex bonus), a flatfooted commoner with a dex of 10 (no dex penalty) and a flatfooted pc with a dex of 20 (+5 dex) ... have the same dex bonus to avoid being hit with the arrow,
Sorry, don't have a 3.5 DMG (only have advanced dungeons and dragons DMG, 2.0, skills and powers, and 3.0 -- for 3.5, i rely upon buddies and SRD) -- so I cannot definitively respond to your DMG comment ... however,
If you don't have Line of Sight, you can't target your opponent with a ranged weapon. A crowded market is very different from shooting at a single opponent blocked by one or two of your buddies. I have lost sight of friends within 20 feet of me in a crowd. I have never lost sight of a friend surrounded by 3 people. It is very difficult to maintain Line of Sight in a crowd.
This sub-debate is as follows (as i understand it): One Group: Since the DnD universe (other than a variant rule) is set up so that archers cannot hit the wrong target, there is no rules-based reason for people to fear misfires. Other Group: In the real world, there is a chance of hitting the wrong target, therefore, although there might be no chance in DnD of hitting the wrong target, the inhabitants of the DnD universe do not know that.
The DnD universe actually doesn't normally use the wrong target rules for simplicity. Most of the time, it really doesn't matter. The reason why the variant rules are there is because it actually can matter. I believe the designers expected players to use some common sense and not simply fire arrows into a crowd.
To which I call poppy-cocks ... there is no reason for the DnD inhabitants to think of the possibility of being hit by a missed arrow. It is ludicrous to the extreme to imagine that DnD NPCs can imagine reality and react accordingly even when the reality is not reflected in the game.
The game actually does use some form of reality. Swords cut, metal is forged, people are born and die of old age, etc. The game assumes a level of reality to begin with and then places magic over that. Some things are not easily replicated with a single d20, like falling. For that, the universe changes a bit. The concept remains, but the execution is simplified.
Wraithstrike, are you going to say that if a PC is in between the arrows and their intended target and you are DM your PCs just keep doing things in the combat as if nothing is going on, and make no attempt to get out of the way?
Hint: The answer to both questions should be the same for the same reason.
If your commoners are just standing around while arrows fly by I would hate to be in one of your games. If my PC's are in combat being in the way of danger is not an option. Now if two rival groups start fighting and they happen to be in the middle, and they continue to shop(assuming that is what they are doing), and make no attempt to take cover then a few arrows might "accidentally" fly in their direction. I understand the arrow is being shot through a five foot square and it is very possible to not be hit, but in a shopping area it will most likely be crowded and while the map may give everyone five feet of space in a market people are shoulder to shoulder and the five foot area may not be entirely yours, and that is when commoners should take cover, along with the fact that guards that are careless enough to shoot through a crowd might not be to picky about who gets hits. The rules dont account for everything. If a monster comes to the town and tries to kill the PC's in front of everyone the commoners could go "I have never heard of a monster specifically targeting PC's to kill us so we will just stand around", but most DM's will have the commoners getting out of the way, even though he knows they are not in real danger they(commoners) don't know that.
