Community

Well, "Playtesters are being drawn from the RPGA ranks" is not the same as "Playtesters are being exclusively drawn from the RPGA ranks" and so it is technically possible for both to be true.

I am a little disheartened by this though. It does sound a little like poor communication within the organisation or possibly this Dave Christ fellow reporting inferences as fact.

Both of the previous two posters seem to have missed this part of the Dave Christ quote:

sign-up for D&D Insider preview if you want a chance at participating

Really, it's right there, just two posts above this one.

So no, there is no conflict whatsoever between these two statements. This is just like the people who turned "There is no fourth edition being worked on that would rely exclusively on miniatures" into "There is no fourth edition being worked on". You don't get to stop reading in the middle of a sentence.

Okay... So, how exactly does one sign up for D&D Insider Preview? This is the issue, sadly. One (perfectly logical) option would be that we all are, since our forum accounts are D&D Insider accounts right now. Another (the more common belief, I think) seems to be that there is a second sign-up to be in the running for playtesting and we are looking for the link...

Prince_of_Cats wrote:

Okay... So, how exactly does one sign up for D&D Insider Preview?

I've been wondering that myself...

...and do I have to be part of the RPGA to participate?

I was able to sign in to D&D Insider today for the first time using my forum name and password. Nothing different, but it seems the site is now taking sign-ons

Eric Anondson wrote:

Likely in the midst of updates.

well if it is going to go down 6 hours each time a new article needs to be addes i say this thing is already a flop.

Prince_of_Cats wrote:

Okay... So, how exactly does one sign up for D&D Insider Preview?

by having a forums account.

so i guess it is only new forums memebr that will be used for playtesting since you can't sign-up for DI if you are already signed up...

You negative nellys are a bunch of whining weasels. Why does anyone try anythign new with people like you around? Nothing is ever good enough. There are going to be wrinkles. If you dont want to

shadzar wrote:

well if it is going to go down 6 hours each time a new article needs to be addes i say this thing is already a flop.

Why assume only a single article was added? That's all you could see, so that's all that was done?

So I ask again... How foreign people would pay the Insider? There will be translated versions?

Eric Anondson wrote:

Why assume only a single article was added? That's all you could see, so that's all that was done?

only one new one came last night. think of all the pages that must be changed. links aren't all in one place, you have to dig to find something.

they could have done other things, but they are not evident while the single article is.

also if it means downtime for adding articles they will need to have a schedule to allow people to know when they can use the site.

if the online tools go down when the rest of the site then people will not have a chance to use them.

the advantage to playing online is one that allows 2nd or 3rd shift worker be able to find a game to play when local stores aren't open and people in their area aren't awake to play.

so having the site down at those "late" hours may be something that deters potential users.

the internet itself doesn't close at any time nor does it care how you are.

also different time zones may wish to be on at a specific time or only able to be on at specific times to play, and having the site always down at that time means the loos of other possible customers for it.

people wont really be carign so much about jsut the Dragon and Dungeon articles. the game table will see much higher use and do more work than the server that holds the articles database.

I'm not sure that anyone from WotC will see this suggestion here, and maybe this isn't quite the place for it, but I have a feeling that if I started a separate thread for it, it would get closed and rerouted here anyway.

In any event, here it is: If WotC would like to get fans excited about 4th edition, then all of their little teaser articles should be freely available on the website, not available only to those who sign up for D&D Insider. The people who sign up are clearly already sold on 4th edition (literally, having ponied up the money to sign up). The people you should be trying to convince are the ones who HAVEN'T signed up. And trust me, curiosity about what your little teaser articles are saying isn't going to be enough to convince anyone. Show us the articles as a means of getting us interested, not as a reward for signing up.

Brom Blackforge wrote:

I'm not sure that anyone from WotC will see this suggestion here, and maybe this isn't quite the place for it, but I have a feeling that if I started a separate thread for it, it would get closed and rerouted here anyway.

In any event, here it is: If WotC would like to get fans excited about 4th edition, then all of their little teaser articles should be freely available on the website, not available only to those who sign up for D&D Insider. The people who sign up are clearly already sold on 4th edition (literally, having ponied up the money to sign up). The people you should be trying to convince are the ones who HAVEN'T signed up. And trust me, curiosity about what your little teaser articles are saying isn't going to be enough to convince anyone. Show us the articles as a means of getting us interested, not as a reward for signing up.

Two major inaccuracies here - you can't start new threads in this forum, and D&DI doesn't, at the moment, cost a penny, and won't for a few months yet.

Okay, apparently I misunderstood. I tried logging in with my boards name/password and that worked. Is that going to continue to be true, or is that going to change at some point?

Already done. The Insider is a free website for now, and from what they have said the areas that have their articles about whats going into the game will remain free even after the pay part of the website kicks off. Head over to www.dndinsider.com and sign-in using your forum account and read the articles that are already there. Also, I highly recommend going over to gleemax and subscribing to the Developers Blogs threads. A lot of good info is showing up there, also the FAQ here on the forums is a must subscribe thread as well.

As for your post not getting read, they have already said that every thread that WotC started in here gets read and kept up with every day by someone. several someones actually.

Brom Blackforge wrote:

Okay, apparently I misunderstood. I tried logging in with my boards name/password and that worked. Is that going to continue to be true, or is that going to change at some point?

That will always be the case.

Two major inaccuracies here - you can't start new threads in this forum, and D&DI doesn't, at the moment, cost a penny, and won't for a few months yet.

Thank you. Your post was quicker than mine. I haven't tried starting a new thread, but I suspected that you couldn't, and I figured out about logging in with my existing (free) account. I was just taken aback that the "guest" login suddenly disappeared sometime between this morning and this afternoon.

eleran wrote:

Already done. The Insider is a free website for now, and from what they have said the areas that have their articles about whats going into the game will remain free even after the pay part of the website kicks off. Head over to www.dndinsider.com and sign-in using your forum account and read the articles that are already there. Also, I highly recommend going over to gleemax and subscribing to the Developers Blogs threads. A lot of good info is showing up there, also the FAQ here on the forums is a must subscribe thread as well.

As for your post not getting read, they have already said that every thread that WotC started in here gets read and kept up with every day by someone. several someones actually.

Good to know. Thanks.

Group and Club Accounts

And I'm blanking out on the wording of the rest of this post. I'll edit later, but I thought I'd get the idea out there.

WoTC has repeatedly said that D&DI will be your online kitchen table. They also emphasize that groups that played in college, will be able to continue to play when they move appart physically.

For this to be true, online gaming groups should be able to share their online material.

WoTC can maintain their sales levels by limiting the number of people in a group and placing some kind of limit on the number of groups someone can participate in. I would rather see a 3 group limit per subscriber account or have my players paying a small fee to join groups, than to have us all needing to buy our own libraries.

Also one of the key things about attracting new players, is by DMs lending out their books.

It is a gaming tradition and norm for the DM to own most of the books a group uses to create all of their characters.

D&DI will not do well (outside of those seeking Dragon/Dungeon subscriptions) if the online groups can't continue with this tradition.

I generally disagree with you Wenin, along with the others who've been calling for "group" accounts. The way I see it, every player should have access to a PHB (it doesn't need to be their PHB, but it should be where it's easy to reference. Heck even the SRD would be sufficient), and the DM should have all three of the main "Core" books. Beyond that, if a player wants to use this or that {insert dealibopper here} from "Book X" there are plenty of ways the DM can check it out that doesn't require access to the whole book. The player could write it out and e-mail it to the DM before the game even starts, for example (something I've even done in the past for online games as a DM when using non-standard rules, whether they're house rules or from a non-core book).
It just seems to me that those clamoring for such sharing accounts wants something for nothing or wants WotC to put otherwise unneeded limits on accounts, even if the owner of the account wouldn't make use of such book sharing.

VladamireDracos wrote:

I generally disagree with you Wenin, along with the others who've been calling for "group" accounts. The way I see it, every player should have access to a PHB (it doesn't need to be their PHB, but it should be where it's easy to reference. Heck even the SRD would be sufficient), and the DM should have all three of the main "Core" books. Beyond that, if a player wants to use this or that {insert dealibopper here} from "Book X" there are plenty of ways the DM can check it out that doesn't require access to the whole book. The player could write it out and e-mail it to the DM before the game even starts, for example (something I've even done in the past for online games as a DM when using non-standard rules, whether they're house rules or from a non-core book).
It just seems to me that those clamoring for such sharing accounts wants something for nothing or wants WotC to put otherwise unneeded limits on accounts, even if the owner of the account wouldn't make use of such book sharing.

My arguement for a shared account was before they clarified what every account holder would have access to. The problem was making everyone buy a copy of the book so that no-one got left behind when making characters. Problem solved.

Irving wrote:

And in the interim, the Mac and Linux advertisers proudly proclaim their virus immunity due to their obscurity ("Hi, I'm a Mac". "And I'm a PC. *cough, cough*"). It's a bit irritating to listen to the holier-than-thou attitudes that Mac and Linux users sometimes use when some of their "virtues" are due to a lack of market penetration.

I've got no doubt that there are tools that would make it easier for Mac and Linux uses to access this site. But look at the demographics, folks. You're a tiny minority of the PC user base... and that's a point of pride for you. Is it worth the extra money to rebuild just for you? Don't act so startled when that "elite minority" status you treasure has a downside as well.

Bud... get over yourself. You don't like Macs or Apple technology, so what? You don't like Linux... who cares? These guys and gals have the right to be able to get into the DI just like you and I do. So lay off.

Wenin wrote:

Also one of the key things about attracting new players, is by DMs lending out their books.

It is a gaming tradition and norm for the DM to own most of the books a group uses to create all of their characters.

yeah, um, no.

not everywhere does this. my books are not your bathroom reading material nor your coaster to spill a drink all over. get your own books to destroy.

the key to attracting new players is word of mouth. if it sounds good enoguh to try then people will want to try it. the books themselves are just crunch to get to the game at hand.

if i just handed a book to someone to read before playing agame they would say no thanks i will pass on D&D.

but if they heard about the game and things about it they may want to read a book.

and a DM that just loans out books to new players may never see the book again or may not have it in time to play the next session.



and as for your tradtion that is also wrong.

many gaming groups may share the DMs books, but lots others get their own books. some even share all the books to a group.

anyway sharing books via onlie tabletop would not work for the company wanting to make money even if it would help gamers jsut bring their games online.

athynz wrote:

Bud... get over yourself. You don't like Macs or Apple technology, so what? You don't like Linux... who cares? These guys and gals have the right to be able to get into the DI just like you and I do. So lay off.

They don't have a right to that. Talking like that trivializes the whole notion of rights, and is flat-out wrong besides; we're talking about something being provided by a private company for the sole purpose of entertainment here. Nobody has a right to anything that fits that description.

Moreover, I saw a lot more substance in his post than just that he doesn't like Apple or Linux. He pointed to a legitimate drawback of those systems, even if it's one that a large and growing number of people are quite willing to live with.

SoulCatcher78 wrote:

My arguement for a shared account was before they clarified what every account holder would have access to. The problem was making everyone buy a copy of the book so that no-one got left behind when making characters. Problem solved.

where did they announce what each account holder will have access to?

Does anyone read the FAQ?

Okay, I didn't look much into this thread, but what's to stop people from sharing the ebooks? It is the same as the physical book.

You buy one copy. You bring it to your friend's house and everyone there can look at it.

The same person with the book gets the ebook. They go over to a friends house and log-in to their account. Everyone at the house can go and look at what's on the screen.

Sure you can't share over the internet, and it should be that way. If it was that way then ebook sharing would run rampant and the whole system would fail. Then wizards would stop making ebooks and pull what they had out.

Really, if you want to use the info in a book, go to someone's house who has it or buy it yourself.

Do you guys expect everything to be free?(notice I said expect, not want, because of course everyone would want everything for free)

Malraux wrote:

Well, it'd be nice to have my music playing. And since I'm the GM, it'd be nice to have my notes as well as the DDI stuff up. Or have my email to reference some stuff. Or the bookmarks in my browser there. etc. All stuff that relates to gaming, but hindered by booting into windows.

well...you COULD put all that "stuff" on the windows side in the first place.

OH and BELIEVE ME...I'm an artist and an art teacher. we have macs at work...I have an old 8600 in my studio, of course it's very out dated and not working. I'de fix it but when they got me my new 21" Imac at work I decided to just save the money and get a new one. I'm so totally on your side...I'm just saying that with a little planning you could easily over come the inconveniences.

eleran wrote:

Already done. The Insider is a free website for now, and from what they have said the areas that have their articles about whats going into the game will remain free even after the pay part of the website kicks off. Head over to www.dndinsider.com and sign-in using your forum account and read the articles that are already there. Also, I highly recommend going over to gleemax and subscribing to the Developers Blogs threads. A lot of good info is showing up there, also the FAQ here on the forums is a must subscribe thread as well.

As for your post not getting read, they have already said that every thread that WotC started in here gets read and kept up with every day by someone. several someones actually.

When I try to use that link all it does it throw me back to the D&D main page. Is it actually supposed to DO something? Or does this mean that eventually we'll all have to pay just to browse?

Grandpa Gamer wrote:

When I try to use that link all it does it throw me back to the D&D main page. Is it actually supposed to DO something? Or does this mean that eventually we'll all have to pay just to browse?

D&D Insider is the main page. Basically what it does is unlock some of the articles so you can read them, like the Design & Development articles and the magazine related stuff. More will be available later. There won't be any charge until May '08.

how about getting rid of the needless shockwave objects and the auto rolling banner. if i want to click on dragon i should be able to and now have to sit there and watch it change between the "tabs" when it wants to.

the website isn't a game and doesn't need to move on its own.

let the user decide what he wants too look at rather than automatically cycle through the tabs.

that annoys the heck out of me.

vaerdhdragonkin wrote:

D&D Insider is the main page. Basically what it does is unlock some of the articles so you can read them, like the Design & Development articles and the magazine related stuff. More will be available later. There won't be any charge until May '08.

So, after next May, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/ will no longer automatically roll over to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome, and all it will be is a glorified login page? Will there be ANY difference between http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome and http://www.dndinsider.com?

I perfectly understand the idea behind varying levels of access and content based on subscription level, but does this mean there simply won't be ANY free content at all - essentially forcing a subscription of SOME kind? And even with the appropriate subscription, will the downloadable content (acrobat files, map images, etc) have DRM? Will I be able to share data with the players in the group I DM?

And, on the subject of downloadable content, I still am not satisfied on one of the original questions posted in this thread - is a web-accessible PC/PDA required at the gaming table to play 4e? I've seen a lot of acromonious churning, but have yet to read a simple yes/no answer to a simple yes/no question. And by that, I'm not refering to books purchased. After all, all that is really required is the three core books and you've got 4e - but admittedly at a basic, no-frills-added level.

Paying for online access to Dragon or Dungeon magazines is certainly understandable. After all, I had to pay to get them on paper, so that's ok with me. But presently, Paizo has enhancements and maps available for all to download. Will WotC force me to pay a subscription for those as well? And what about FAQ's, errata, and "web enhancements"?

THAT'S my concern.

Grandpa Gamer wrote:

So, after next May, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/ will no longer automatically roll over to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome, and all it will be is a glorified login page?

Will there be ANY difference between http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome and http://www.dndinsider.com?

That I don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say no. I think it will remain the same, since there will still be free content. You'll just need to login to D&D Insider to access the additional content.

Grandpa Gamer wrote:

And, on the subject of downloadable content, I still am not satisfied on one of the original questions posted in this thread - is a web-accessible PC/PDA required at the gaming table to play 4e? I've seen a lot of acromonious churning, but have yet to read a simple yes/no answer to a simple yes/no question. And by that, I'm not refering to books purchased. After all, all that is really required is the three core books and you've got 4e - but admittedly at a basic, no-frills-added level.

Paying for online access to Dragon or Dungeon magazines is certainly understandable. After all, I had to pay to get them on paper, so that's ok with me. But presently, Paizo has enhancements and maps available for all to download. Will WotC force me to pay a subscription for those as well? And what about FAQ's, errata, and "web enhancements"?

THAT'S my concern.

As I understand it, to play 4E, you will not need PC/PDA access, unless you intend to use the Virtual Game Table. Character sheets will be printable through the Character Creator utility, so no need to use the PC for that. If I'm not answering your question, I may be misunderstanding it.

AFAIK, FAQs, errata, and web enhancements will still be free content.

Grandpa Gamer wrote:

I perfectly understand the idea behind varying levels of access and content based on subscription level, but does this mean there simply won't be ANY free content at all - essentially forcing a subscription of SOME kind?

No, there will still be content available without subscription. Things like the Dungeon articles or the Dragon's Articles will require the subscription though.

And even with the appropriate subscription, will the downloadable content (acrobat files, map images, etc) have DRM? Will I be able to share data with the players in the group I DM?

Stay tuned on dndinsider for more information on this in the coming months. This is not a question we can answer fully at that stage. We are aware of the needs of sharing material, but we also want to make sure we protect our Intellectual Properties appropriately.

And, on the subject of downloadable content, I still am not satisfied on one of the original questions posted in this thread - is a web-accessible PC/PDA required at the gaming table to play 4e? I've seen a lot of acromonious churning, but have yet to read a simple yes/no answer to a simple yes/no question. And by that, I'm not refering to books purchased. After all, all that is really required is the three core books and you've got 4e - but admittedly at a basic, no-frills-added level.

No, anything related to D&D Insider is not required nor necessary to play 4th Edition at your gaming table.

Paying for online access to Dragon or Dungeon magazines is certainly understandable. After all, I had to pay to get them on paper, so that's ok with me. But presently, Paizo has enhancements and maps available for all to download. Will WotC force me to pay a subscription for those as well? And what about FAQ's, errata, and "web enhancements"?
THAT'S my concern.

Some answer have already been provided to this here. By the way Wizards has had art and maps available for download for free for years... Stay tuned on dndinsider.com to learn what will be the future of the web enhancements in the upcoming months.

Deathknell wrote:

well...you COULD put all that "stuff" on the windows side in the first place.

OH and BELIEVE ME...I'm an artist and an art teacher. we have macs at work...I have an old 8600 in my studio, of course it's very out dated and not working. I'de fix it but when they got me my new 21" Imac at work I decided to just save the money and get a new one. I'm so totally on your side...I'm just saying that with a little planning you could easily over come the inconveniences.

At which point I'm just using an overpriced nice looking windows box. And splitting up my data. It's a cludgy workaround.

Point being, just running windows is not a good long term solution.

Malraux wrote:

At which point I'm just using an overpriced nice looking windows box. And splitting up my data. It's a cludgy workaround.

Point being, just running windows is not a good long term solution.

Not to mention that the cost of such a workaround involves buying an entirely seperate second OS. So... if we want to play we need to buy a new copy of windows as well as the other stuff that everyone else has to buy.

It also takes up valuable HD space that could be used for something constructive, instead of a partition for something we only need for a game. Remember, most people who own Macs do so because they are better for the work they do. Cluttering it up with a whole OS and the extra space needed to run whatever you want to use it for is often not an attractive option.

A little forethought on the part of the designers could have avoided the whole mess. Open GL would have made it available for everyone. But someone in the chain decided to go with Direct X. It's too bad really, there are many more Mac users than the numbers out there suggest. And just a quick look at these forums show that a lot of D&D players are Mac users.

Hmm, so I saw Mike's post that "D&D Insider is currently up and working properly" (here) and I was like "Okay!" so I went and logged in and it said "You are now logged in to D&D Insider" and I was like "Woo!"

So... is there any stuff? I can't seem to find any new buttons, or menus, or links to the... Inside. Everything looks pretty much the same. Except that red thing near the login prompt is now green. So that's... hot.

Am I missing something?

rironin wrote:

Hmm, so I saw Mike's post that "D&D Insider is currently up and working properly" (here) and I was like "Okay!" so I went and logged in and it said "You are now logged in to D&D Insider" and I was like "Woo!"

So... is there any stuff? I can't seem to find any new buttons, or menus, or links to the... Inside. Everything looks pretty much the same. Except that red thing near the login prompt is now green. So that's... hot.

Am I missing something?

It is up and running but it is still very new. They have little content on it at the moment. As time passes it will build.

bonethug0108 wrote:

It is up and running but it is still very new. They have little content on it at the moment. As time passes it will build.

There's still some misunderstanding... where is the "little content" you speak of? Is the DI its own page/site? If so, where is the link to it? Are you saying that the green light that tells you you're logged in is the extent of the content? If not, how does the content manifest itself?

rironin wrote:

There's still some misunderstanding... where is the "little content" you speak of? Is the DI its own page/site? If so, where is the link to it? Are you saying that the green light that tells you you're logged in is the extent of the content? If not, how does the content manifest itself?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070822a

Try it both logged in and not.

WotC_DM wrote:

No, there will still be content available without subscription. Things like the Dungeon articles or the Dragon's Articles will require the subscription though.


Stay tuned on dndinsider for more information on this in the coming months. This is not a question we can answer fully at that stage. We are aware of the needs of sharing material, but we also want to make sure we protect our Intellectual Properties appropriately.


No, anything related to D&D Insider is not required nor necessary to play 4th Edition at your gaming table.


Some answer have already been provided to this here. By the way Wizards has had art and maps available for download for free for years... Stay tuned on dndinsider.com to learn what will be the future of the web enhancements in the upcoming months.

Thank you. Those are some of the straightest answers I've ever seen on these boards. I was particularly concerned about currently-free product (errata's, maps, etc.) being taken 'offline' except for paying customers.

rironin wrote:

There's still some misunderstanding... where is the "little content" you speak of? Is the DI its own page/site? If so, where is the link to it? Are you saying that the green light that tells you you're logged in is the extent of the content? If not, how does the content manifest itself?

Once your there and logged in look for the sections called Design & Development and Playtest report.

jeff-heikkinen wrote:

They don't have a right to that. Talking like that trivializes the whole notion of rights, and is flat-out wrong besides; we're talking about something being provided by a private company for the sole purpose of entertainment here. Nobody has a right to anything that fits that description.

Moreover, I saw a lot more substance in his post than just that he doesn't like Apple or Linux. He pointed to a legitimate drawback of those systems, even if it's one that a large and growing number of people are quite willing to live with.

Perhaps you have a point, but personally I'm just flat out tired of people putting down mac and linux at every opportunity - both OSes have their pros and cons just like the wintel platform. And he seemed just as much blasting those who use those OSes as the technology behind them - if not more so. If someone who uses a mac asks for a mac -compatable version, that IS their right - I'll agree that the company does not have to cater to them. But for some knucklehead to just blast someone who asks... that's simply common.

And even though the market share for mac and linux users is smaller than the wintel users, it would still behoove the company to look into having a mac version of the product.

And for the record, I am a windows user - I've used macs before and loved them but I like gaming more so that is the main reason I'm using a wintel-based computer. I still feel that mac users and linux users should be able to use all the parts of the DI just like I am able to running my machine.

Sorry about the off-topic post here...

Malraux wrote:

At which point I'm just using an overpriced nice looking windows box. And splitting up my data. It's a cludgy workaround.

Point being, just running windows is not a good long term solution.

OH I agree...it is not a good long term solution.

I still don't get why companies insist on just sticking to one OS or another. If they had anticipated this from the start they could have made it functional across the board from the start. At this point it will take them extra cash to include MAC and LINUX.

athynz wrote:

Perhaps you have a point, but personally I'm just flat out tired of people putting down mac and linux at every opportunity -

How about someone who puts down the awful, putrid, skanky OS that is Vista?

How Microsoft believed that virus like behavior would be tolerated is beyond my ability to understand.

Deathknell wrote:

OH I agree...it is not a good long term solution.

I still don't get why companies insist on just sticking to one OS or another. If they had anticipated this from the start they could have made it functional across the board from the start. At this point it will take them extra cash to include MAC and LINUX.

littlest money out for the most money in.

most people have or can get access to windows OS in order to view the articles and such. but i am not sure the articles will be OS dependant.

shadzar wrote:

littlest money out for the most money in.

most people have or can get access to windows OS in order to view the articles and such. but i am not sure the articles will be OS dependant.

I don't think it is the articles, just the tools.

bonethug0108 wrote:

I don't think it is the articles, just the tools.

certainly. but those tools are not what you pay for. or that may be how it gets spun. the tools will jsut be bonuses for subscribers using windows OS.

therefore they don't need to develop for anything else.

the thing you subscribe to will be the articles or online books, etc. and all that should be cross-platform compatible.

shadzar wrote:

yeah, um, no.

not everywhere does this. my books are not your bathroom reading material nor your coaster to spill a drink all over. get your own books to destroy.

the key to attracting new players is word of mouth. if it sounds good enoguh to try then people will want to try it. the books themselves are just crunch to get to the game at hand.

if i just handed a book to someone to read before playing agame they would say no thanks i will pass on D&D.

but if they heard about the game and things about it they may want to read a book.

and a DM that just loans out books to new players may never see the book again or may not have it in time to play the next session.



and as for your tradtion that is also wrong.

many gaming groups may share the DMs books, but lots others get their own books. some even share all the books to a group.

anyway sharing books via onlie tabletop would not work for the company wanting to make money even if it would help gamers jsut bring their games online.

I don't believe I presented this behavior as an absolute thing that ALL DMs do this, but I do believe it is done far more often than not. It is also not indicated that I meant that a group's library of books, was a library where books are checked out and taken home. I believe it should have been clear that I meant that while character creation is done more traditionally with everyone around the gaming table, ESPECIALLY when dealing with new players. Now when it comes to new players, you obviously don't have them traditionally try to take in all of the non-core books and create some kind of complex character build. However, there is a transitional period where you have a player that isn't new to the game, but still doesn't own their own library of books.

While I'm not saying it is impossible (since I've read someone actually running their group like this in this thread), but I'd bet a year of my salary that it is by far more common for a DM to run their group in a way that a player isn't required to own their own copy of a book in order to utilize its contents.


My opinion of this matter won't change, no matter how blue in the face the "but a company must be able to make money" crowd debates their point. Truthfully I'm a capitalist and I appreciate a company's ability and right to make their money, but I also have a strong sense of a client's right to vote with their money.

In both of the groups I currently play in, neither have the cash that could afford a restrictive sharing model, especially the group that I would consider the hardcore DnD group that has been playing since 1st edition. We have a communal library of books that is kept at the house we play at, which isn't the DMs home. Of the six of us that play, only two have the funds to purchase all of the books (and we do), while two don't even own their personal Player's Handbooks.

thaX wrote:

How about someone who puts down the awful, putrid, skanky OS that is Vista?

How Microsoft believed that virus like behavior would be tolerated is beyond my ability to understand.

I haven't used vista yet so I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other... But one thing I have noticed is that when people put down vista it's because of some issue they have experienced with it themselves, not a blanket "vista users suck" sort of thing. THAT sort of thinking - or not thinking - is what spurred my jumping into this mini-debate here.

Personally I've used Windows 98 (I think it sucked); ME (which totally blew); 2000 (which is on a few of the unnetworked computers at work); XP home (on my wife's and daughter's computers), professional (on the networked computers at work and on my ancient laptop surprisingly enough), and media center (on my desktop) and I have to say FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE and not having used Vista (yet) that the versions of XP are so far the best windows-based OS. On the Mac side I've used every single incarnation of the mac OS from OS7 to OS9 on my old mac - it wasn't OSX compatable unfortunately, and comparing the windows and mac OSes, I have to say FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE that the mac OS is intuitive and very easy to use from the get-go. I've even tried ubuntu linux - but I really didn't like it much. The ONLY windows OS that I've felt that comfy with is XP which is the most intuitive and mac-like OS that microsoft has come out with - again I'm saying this from my own experiences and not having tried vista yet.

And again my whole issue is that you got some jacka$$ who just wants to crap the threads by putting down macs in general and mac users specificly for wanting to be able to get into the DI... and that's just common as hell and an example of a very pi$$ poor attitude.

But perhaps I've jumped the gun a bit myself, so let me backtrack and put it to Irving and even jeff-heikkinen - have either one of you ever used a mac at all? Even to play with one in a comp USA or a mac store? Tell ya what, before you (and I'm aiming this at anyone and everyone suffering from an anti-mac bias) come down with your anti-mac bias, why not give one a whirl? Go to a store and play with one for a bit. Got a friend with a mac? See if he or she will let you play with their mac for a bit...

I'm here to tell you from my own personal experience that the mac technology and the mac OS is superior to the wintel platform - it is, after all the original (well, actually xerox was the orginial but Apple bought the rights to it, not stole it, changed it slightly, and resold it like someone *cough* Bill Gates *cough* did... but I digress)... and has been refined over the years. Don't get me wrong I do like XP, I like being able to play pretty much any game I want to, but if it wasn't for the agressive advertising on Microsoft's side and the lack of it on Apple's side, then just from ease of use and killer technology then the macs would hold the lion's share of the market right now.

But my point is not even that, but just the attacks from some jackass here to the mac users, hence my orignal comment for Irving to get over himself.

Wenin wrote:

I don't believe I presented this behavior as an absolute thing that ALL DMs do this, but I do believe it is done far more often than not. It is also not indicated that I meant that a group's library of books, was a library where books are checked out and taken home. I believe it should have been clear that I meant that while character creation is done more traditionally with everyone around the gaming table, ESPECIALLY when dealing with new players. Now when it comes to new players, you obviously don't have them traditionally try to take in all of the non-core books and create some kind of complex character build. However, there is a transitional period where you have a player that isn't new to the game, but still doesn't own their own library of books.

While I'm not saying it is impossible (since I've read someone actually running their group like this in this thread), but I'd bet a year of my salary that it is by far more common for a DM to run their group in a way that a player isn't required to own their own copy of a book in order to utilize its contents.


My opinion of this matter won't change, no matter how blue in the face the "but a company must be able to make money" crowd debates their point. Truthfully I'm a capitalist and I appreciate a company's ability and right to make their money, but I also have a strong sense of a client's right to vote with their money.

In both of the groups I currently play in, neither have the cash that could afford a restrictive sharing model, especially the group that I would consider the hardcore DnD group that has been playing since 1st edition. We have a communal library of books that is kept at the house we play at, which isn't the DMs home. Of the six of us that play, only two have the funds to purchase all of the books (and we do), while two don't even own their personal Player's Handbooks.

I'm a part of two gaming groups, both running 3.5 and so far if one of us doesn't have a certain books then one of the other players or DM will loan it to the player to use for a bit in character creation. I've sunk quite a bit of money into getting the books but I don't have every single book... there are those in my groups with children, medical issues, or other priorities and so don't own but a few of the books - and it's no big deal to loan them out to others in the group.

I can see an issue with a shared thing on the DI however... I would be really nice if they are willing to do something like shared books for spouses and gaming groups but I seriously doubt it will ever happen - the bean-counters would see it as loosing money...

shadzar wrote:

certainly. but those tools are not what you pay for. or that may be how it gets spun. the tools will jsut be bonuses for subscribers using windows OS.

therefore they don't need to develop for anything else.

the thing you subscribe to will be the articles or online books, etc. and all that should be cross-platform compatible.

For those of us who's groups have spread out, the tools are exactly what we are interested in.

athynz wrote:

I'm a part of two gaming groups, both running 3.5 and so far if one of us doesn't have a certain books then one of the other players or DM will loan it to the player to use for a bit in character creation. I've sunk quite a bit of money into getting the books but I don't have every single book... there are those in my groups with children, medical issues, or other priorities and so don't own but a few of the books - and it's no big deal to loan them out to others in the group.

I can see an issue with a shared thing on the DI however... I would be really nice if they are willing to do something like shared books for spouses and gaming groups but I seriously doubt it will ever happen - the bean-counters would see it as loosing money...

But the shared books thing may not be an issue if this works out the way they say it will. From what I understand, the tools will allow you to make a character even if you dont have the book in question. You will be able to use feats from said book and they will appear on your character, but wont appear is a detail of what that feat does, merely the feat name and which book its from ,maybe even with a page number. Then, if you have a friend with the book he/she can fill you in on the details of the feat. This seems like a reasonable approach to me. It is sort of the way our curent group works, not everyone owns every book, but between us we own almost all of them. As I am making up a character I might mention to the group, has anyone seen a feat that will do X, and someone might say yeah saw that in Complete Coolness, heres the book copy it from there.

I haven't read the rest of thread, and so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I would really like to have access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines without paying the full subscription to DDI. I don't plan on using many of the features of DDI, but I still want my Dragon. I'm not made of money, and so it'd be really helpful if the various features were available individually.

eleran wrote:

But the shared books thing may not be an issue if this works out the way they say it will. From what I understand, the tools will allow you to make a character even if you dont have the book in question. You will be able to use feats from said book and they will appear on your character, but wont appear is a detail of what that feat does, merely the feat name and which book its from ,maybe even with a page number. Then, if you have a friend with the book he/she can fill you in on the details of the feat. This seems like a reasonable approach to me. It is sort of the way our curent group works, not everyone owns every book, but between us we own almost all of them. As I am making up a character I might mention to the group, has anyone seen a feat that will do X, and someone might say yeah saw that in Complete Coolness, heres the book copy it from there.

If I'm gaming at my "kitchen table" I don't need to bother a DM or the owner of a book with a "Could you look up on page x of y book and tell me what z feat/spell/class/ability does?". No at my gaming table I am able to say "Please pass me the y book."

In my gaming group, we can switch out the DMs so that one of the members that has only bought maybe the PH and DMG can run his own game using all the material we have available.

It isn't impossible for WoTC to allow groups to share out their collective books with their members, if they just institute a few things.

- Groups are limited in size (no more than 12)
- Users are limited to the number of groups they can join (less than 4)
- The non-owners of the books just get a JPG image of the page they are looking up.

Sure someone could go through the trouble of putting together a whole book and PDF it.... well someone willing to go through that trouble is someone willing to download a free piece of software that allows them to download PDF versions of books.

Greath wrote:

For those of us who's groups have spread out, the tools are exactly what we are interested in.

Even for those of us who aren't. I can see using a tool like the Game Table on a regular basis during an event where we are all physically present, just to spice up the combats and make them more visually appealing. That will not happen in my group if there's not some level of Mac compatibility.

And these days, since the Mac OS is essentially a form of Unix, it should not be hard to include Linux as well.

athynz wrote:

But perhaps I've jumped the gun a bit myself, so let me backtrack and put it to Irving and even jeff-heikkinen - have either one of you ever used a mac at all? Even to play with one in a comp USA or a mac store?

Yes, I owned a Mac for several years. The OS was no more or less inutitive or easy to use than Windows, in my experience. Not "bad" per se, but nothing special. I thought the "cuddly" aspects of the OS (the little smiley computer and cartoony icons) were obnoxious. The hockey-pucked shaped mouse with one button was weird. And when the hard drive failed, I couldn't replace it - unlike a Dell box, which is easy to open up and work with. And, of course, I couldn't play any games on it. I spent $150 on my current Windows machine. When the used monitor I used to use with the machine died, I got another used one for $20. It works well enough for my needs, it's easy to maintain, and on a slow weekend I can run down to Target and buy a game that won awards two years ago for $10.

It's not Macs per se that I've got a problem with. It's the messianic attitude that many users have. I hate being preached to about how much smarter you are than me for buying Steve Job's machine. It's a computer. It's kinda pretty, but it's got design flaws like every other machine ever designed. Stop pretending it's the second coming, already - it's not an idol, it's an appliance.

When they Mac messiahs are actually forced to recognize that their teal-colored machines aren't perfect, I can't help but grin. It's like watching an obnoxious driver get pulled over by the cops. Sometimes, reality intrudes on the myth.

It hardly suprises me that this game won't be Mac friendly. You should be used to it by now, though. How many games are Mac friendly to begin with? I couldn't get Achaea to cooperate with the Mac (a text-only MMORPG using cutting-edge 1980's technology). Why should this game be any different?

I have a couple of questions. I've checked the 4E FAQ for answers from WotC staffers, but can't find the details I'm searching for.

D&DI is 9.95 a month, and includes Dragon/Dungeon Magazines plus all the other "extras" such as the virtual gaming table, character vault etc. I have this info on hand. The details I'm missing are:

How often do we pay-up? That is, do we pay 9.95 each month, or can we pay a few months ahead? 120.00 or even 60.00 is a big chunk of change, so it prolly wont be too far in advance.

Can we buy individual "issues" without signing up for an extended subscription. I've heard some things, but have no details on this.

What are the ways to pay? Credit Card seems obvious but I haven't found any details on this yet.

Details, details . . . at this late stage of the game, these little things are driving me crazy. I apologize if all of this is readily available and I'm just missing it somehow. Many thanks to any who can help; I will keep my eye open for any responses and pass details along as best I can for others like myself who may have missed them.

You seem up to date on everything you mentioned as far as I can tell. There are no more details yet because it is not "late in the game" The game won't even be available until May of next year which is about the same time the D&D Insider will start charging for access. Thats 7 months or so out. I think as this moves forward info will become prone to the snowball effect. Just keep your ears open and your eyes to the grindstone and all will be revealed.

Attention, WoTC staff members!

I already posted this on the Doomsday thread, but then I thought that this would be a more suitable thread to pose these questions to you:

I was wondering if you guys at WoTC have considered public libraries as customers when you were planning DI and these digital 'book codes' for additional material?

Is it even possible for libraries to subscribe to DI? I personally think that they would violate copyright laws if they pass on their usernames and passwords to library users, or if their users are downloading and saving magazines in .pdf format. Anyway, preventing this (abuse of digital material) would require someone keeping constant watch over them, which most (=seriously understaffed) libraries are simply not able to do.

If libraries buy the 4E Core Books, are they allowed to print this 'additional' digital material for their users to read, or let them read/browse it online by using the book code owned by the library? Even if there is a risk that these users will also download those .pdf versions of the books? I doubt that, but I just wanted to ask. I must also note here that usually any kind of 'restricted access to a part of the collection' might be seen as 'abominable' by many librarians, and thus not even worth the investment.

Have you guys thought of all this, because I'd like to think that public libraries worldwide have been loyal and profitable customers to WoTC for many years? As I said above, considering the copyright laws and what we've read about DI it might either be very impractical or even against their ideology to subscribe to DI and purchase any 4E books - making it easier, from a library's perspective, to stop buying D&D products altogether.

I don't know where else to ask this, so I'll just do it here.
Supposedly, having an account here is a foot in the door for playtesting. Do we know anything else about it?

When does playtesting begin?
How can I be sure to get in?

Hrm. Well, I have a dumb question. I can't login to the Insider. Well, I can, but it still doesn't show me content. I get an "authenticate=true" in the request string, but the page reloads telling me I still need to sign in. And when I tried to submit a question to wotc via e-mail, it said my request had not been submitted, to press the "send e-mail" button to send it....but there was no e-mail button.

Is D&D Insider down? Am I missing something obvious I should be doing to access the design articles? Did I misunderstand when I thought my account in the community was enough for temporary access to the D&D insider articles? Assistance would be greatly appreciated (even though this is slightly off topic, its the closest topic I could find. Abject apologies!)

Irving wrote:

The hockey-pucked shaped mouse with one button was weird.

Yeah, they got rid of those and finally moved to two-button mice as well. Plugging in a multi-button mouse was the first thing I did when I started using Macs at school.

Irving wrote:

And when the hard drive failed, I couldn't replace it - unlike a Dell box, which is easy to open up and work with.

Were you using an iMac? I recall those being a pain for replacing anything but RAM. The Macs that have the tower separate from the screen I remember being much easier to work with. (The side panel had hinges so you could pop it open.)

Irving wrote:

When they Mac messiahs are actually forced to recognize that their teal-colored machines aren't perfect, I can't help but grin. It's like watching an obnoxious driver get pulled over by the cops. Sometimes, reality intrudes on the myth.

Of course, if they're defending the greatness of a seven-year-old computer with a hockey-puck mouse, they probably deserve to be knocked of their pedestal.

Irving wrote:

It hardly suprises me that this game won't be Mac friendly. You should be used to it by now, though. How many games are Mac friendly to begin with? I couldn't get Achaea to cooperate with the Mac (a text-only MMORPG using cutting-edge 1980's technology). Why should this game be any different?

Yup. When they announced the software tools for D&D Insider, I just assumed they wouldn't run on my computer. No surprise to me. Aside from WoW, I can't think of a single major game that runs on both Windows and OS X.

Irving wrote:

It's the messianic attitude that many users have. I hate being preached to about how much smarter you are than me for buying Steve Job's machine.

How about you ditch the smears. You are seeing what hasn't been said in this thread. You are holding a grudge against all mac users because you have had a bad experience with a few. Drop it already or go get counseling. You got issues.

Irving wrote:

1...The hockey-pucked shaped mouse with one button was weird.

2... And when the hard drive failed, I couldn't replace it - unlike a Dell box, which is easy to open up and work with.

3... And, of course, I couldn't play any games on it.

4... It's not Macs per se that I've got a problem with. It's the messianic attitude that many users have. I hate being preached to about how much smarter you are than me for buying Steve Job's machine.


5... It hardly suprises me that this game won't be Mac friendly. You should be used to it by now, though.

1... Long gone... and I've been plugging 3rd party multi-button mice into my macs for 10 years. I got the same 3rd party mice when I use PC's by the way. Just liked em better than what came with the rig generally.


2... Also, long gone... I've got an Imac, and it's easy as pie to crack one open now. Everything was easily accessible. Cakewalk comes to mind.

3... This is changing, it's gonna take a while, but Blizzard opened the floodgates, EA dove in headfirst and others are joining the procession all the time. Companies are finding that there's more money to be made by stopping exclusionary practices. Better to build for everyone if you have the resources.

4... I know I don't, and most Mac owners I know, don't have this attitude. We're just happy to have a machine we like. I really don't care what others use, it's all about personal choice to me. Use what ya like.

5... I know I am, but, like I said, the market is changing. Forward thinkers like Blizz and EA are taking advantage of it. Consumers can have long memories too, and they'll show a lot more long term support for companies who jumped in the pool with them first.




Anyway... just a long winded way of getting around to... there isn't a whole lot of difference between the systems these days.. everyone's mining everyone else's ideas.

Use the system you like.

Eventually WotC and others WILL come around. There's a lot of money waiting to be spent on their product.

I'll try to help

Artifact wrote:

I have a couple of questions. I've checked the 4E FAQ for answers from WotC staffers, but can't find the details I'm searching for.

D&DI is 9.95 a month, and includes Dragon/Dungeon Magazines plus all the other "extras" such as the virtual gaming table, character vault etc. I have this info on hand. The details I'm missing are:

The $10 dollar price is not a final price. The current price range being thrown around is $8-12.

How often do we pay-up? That is, do we pay 9.95 each month, or can we pay a few months ahead? 120.00 or even 60.00 is a big chunk of change, so it prolly wont be too far in advance.

I think they will have different payment plans. There is even a pay as you go(per use) plan.

Can we buy individual "issues" without signing up for an extended subscription. I've heard some things, but have no details on this.

They said at the end of each month all the articles will be rolled into their respective magazines and you can pay for just those magazines.

What are the ways to pay? Credit Card seems obvious but I haven't found any details on this yet.

They are still discussing this.

Details, details . . . at this late stage of the game, these little things are driving me crazy. I apologize if all of this is readily available and I'm just missing it somehow. Many thanks to any who can help; I will keep my eye open for any responses and pass details along as best I can for others like myself who may have missed them.

I think they don't want to finalize any details yet because they are trying to find the best way to do things.

Hope that helps.

I hope city and wilderness tiles are soon supported. Also, I do think Wizards should implement advanced features they charge for -- for example, an official campaign (or many campaigns) run by Wizards that have ramifications in the actual campaign settings, character storage, map storage, downloadable maps (like gazeteers) and NPC that eventually cover most regions and major locations in their official settings.

Also, I'd pay up to a hundred dollars (with monthly fifty dollar subscription fee) for a superb MMORPG exceeding quality and gameplay standards of the norm. Maybe Wizards will be able to afford such a thing from upper/advanced feature fees. Also, Wizards should keep in mind that they'll probably have to compete with White Wolf again in this decade -- for online gaming sales. This could serve to strengthen their portfolio if they focus on intelligently done quality work.

Regardless, I am hopeful for the future works of Wizards and D&D although really guys, the D20 Modern setting should've had updated D&D classes rather than its present ten level generic format.

Irving wrote:

Yes, I owned a Mac...

Maddox has a lot of great stuff to say about Macs.

$50 a month for an online roleplaying game??? I hope your talking about a game game e.g. baldur's gate, neverwinter nights and not a campaign game i.e. dm + players because there's no way I could afford $50 a month (even the 8-12 price range would be hard for me at the moment especially if I'm buying books as well) much less be willing to try for the right to play just because its an official ongoing campaign. Although on that note it would be nice if they had an online version of the living games for people to play or DM in. Make it much more accessable for players in remote areas who can't get to the conventions that are where those normally take place.

Ok I think I want to let my opinion on this debate be known as well. I am an old school computer user I remember when computers didn't come with harddrives or color graphics cards. My fist programing expereince was with a Commedor 64. When I got my first computer I was very happy an IBM blue tooth running DOS. I upgraded to a VGA graphics card, up the the RAM to 512K, and added a hardrive (40M it ruled!) I continued to Upgrade not only the computer but the OS as well. Windows 3.0, 3.1, 95 (What do you mean you can't find my CD-ROM its been there for the past two years), 98, and finally mallenium (I quit!) I switch OSes at this point because windows was not doing what I wanted it to do it wasn't the top of the line and it wasn't the best and the brightest, it was the de-facto and they knew it, microsoft didn't care. This mentallity continued and is just now starting to be challenged.

That's when I switched to a mac. When XP came out I quickly switched back. I had all of the classic problems with mac: single botton mouse sucks, can't upgrade, programs blow, and No games. Now I used XP for a long time as I moved into Computer Science my ideas on what makes a good system changed as well. I reallized that their are fundamental flaws in the way windows works, file system the way it stores information the companies attitude (which is why their are more viruses on windows than any other OS), and it was not as stable. I then switched to LINUX. I finally found out what a stable OS was like it ran smooth, I could put it on anything, it was great except, no games and programs did not install intuitively (you all know the steps of the make/make install dance, I just love the coriography.) This sad penguin went back to using XP.

I try to look at every new tech that I can I try to examine it from multiple angles to see if it is better than what I am currently using. I am what you would call a technophile. When mac said they weregoing to OS X I was happy that they were going to be built on free BSD and thought it was a smart move on their part. I looked at the new systems coming out and descided it wasn't for me, they still had a while to go. This can be said for many technologies that come out especially software. I continued to use XP. I watch alot of Tech as it matures though and OS X still was on my watch list. with OS 10.2 I switched to mac. the software had matured to the point that it didn't matter wether I worked on a mac or pc, their were games, and good ones at that that I could play on the mac, the hardware specs out of the box was better, and the system was far more stable because of its BSD roots. When mac switched to Intel proccessors it really put the nail on the coffen and I see more and more mac users every week. Just recently their has been a surge of game being ported over to mac (a list I will not go over here but it is impressive). I am currently lookig at vista and I think it blows right now but when they get the kinks worked out it will be a good system. I will have to look at it serriously then to see if it would be better to switch.

Am I a mac messia? No. Do I use mac? Yes. Are they overall better than windows machines? Yes. Will I switch to a better operating system? Yes, but you would have to show me one first. There isn't one on the market yet. Vista looks like it got some promise but they have alot of work to do. by the way my PDA runs Windows it rocks. I'm not switching to the Iphone untill it has more software that can compete, so I'm not an Apple flunky either. I also don't own an Ipod, I don't listen to that many songs so I use my Homebrewed PSP instead it rocks.

The Point: Companies should not become palcid in the technologies that they have, since technology is moving faster and faster. There are more mac users in the world, than when WoTC created MTO's direct X interface and I think they should really look at becoming less dependent on a single OS. It will save the the process of having to upgrade later, costing them less money in the long run. Weither they like it or not they will have to upgrade. It may be because mac continues it's current growth and starts to dominate the market over the corse of the next year, and if you don't think this is possible then your not paying attention. Look at the new Imacs they're compact they hang on your wall they support 1tb hard drives. or it may be because something new comes out or windows desides to scrap Direct X for something new to compete in todays market, not likely but I didn't think that a fully holographic touch sensitive display, or we would be able to allow theblind to see using a camera and an chip embedded into a persons skull, or that a japanese person could become nearly invisable to the naked eye but these all exist. think about it.

What will I do though. Shut up and by an intel mac.

redwulfe wrote:

It may be because mac continues it's current growth and starts to dominate the market over the corse of the next year, and if you don't think this is possible then your not paying attention.

Really? This report says that Macs have surged to six percent of the market share. Call me crazy, but I don't picture them increasing their market dominance twelve and a half times over the course of a year.

At any rate, I can't find the 4e FAQ since the forums moved, so forgive me if this has already been asked. Would it be possible to grant short-term DDI access when a user enters the code from a new D&D book he's purchased? While I'm not sympathetic to the people who are looking for a free lunch during the conversion process, allowing a week or two of free DDI access after activating a new book doesn't seem unreasonable. It could also serve as a way to tempt users who haven't previously been using the online service by giving them a sample of what they've been missing. And from the consumer side, users would be able to make a more informed purchase when subscribing. Rounding things out, this would also lessen the load on the most loyal customers that are actually purchasing every hardcover you guys churn out. (Though I'm not about to claim I'm one of them.)

Feasible? Probable?

MerlintheTuna wrote:

Really? This report says that Macs have surged to six percent of the market share. Call me crazy, but I don't picture them increasing their market dominance twelve and a half times over the course of a year.

Crazy.

Who brings their corporate computer to the game, or get this client software installed on it without the IT masterminds noticing? Hmm. Okay. Scratch those.

Who lugs their home desktop tower to the game table? Exactly. Scratch those.

Now. Who is going to be bringing their home laptop to the game table? Right. Apple has 17.6% of the retail laptop market right now. And growing twice to three time faster the Windows laptops, at this time next year Apple could have 20% of the retail market. Of the younger demographic, you know, the age range D&D targets to like college students, Apple is even larger than that. If you exclude all the toy laptops under $1,000 which likely won't be able to run Game Table due to the requirements, Apple has an even larger share of the market of those laptops.

Of the target demographic, using non-corporate locked-down laptops powerful enough to run Game Table, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Apple has nearly a 30%–40%+ market share. Nothing to sneeze at when you write software.

It's a matter of looking at what market you expect to be at the game table. Laptops primarily, powerful enough to run Game Table, and a younger demographic at that.

Just a word about Vista.

The system that Vista is was not what was originally going to be. The new file swapping/storage system was scrapped when the content protection schemes was introduced and shoehorned into the OS. That Microsoft would go completely into this muck of protection of song and film is disturbing and heavily effects the OS and what they can do to lighten the load.

Mac OS has been clustered into dedicated boxes from the beginning, and OS X moves away from that idiom, allowing owners to upgrade and replace inner hardware like PC users have been doing for decades.

Now Vista is going the other way. Trying to build a computer with Vista is like pulling teeth. This is more than getting "Vista Compatible" parts, but having the whole computer digitally read and forming a readout of what your computer is.

More and more customers are building their own computer instead of getting the lesser boxes like E-Machines. Vista is discouraging this.

To say that Mac isn't going to get a bigger share from this stumble that Vista did is foolish. Vista can only hide the content protection better or get rid of it and become a prettier XP. Other than the newer Direct X and a prettier interface, it has nothing new inside it but a virus like programs that makes sure that every little thing is "paid for." This is not an OS.

Eric: Why would you use the digital game table if you have an actual game table right in front of you? I see desktops being more relevant than laptops in a lot of cases.

Eric Anondson wrote:

Crazy.
Who brings their corporate computer to the game, or get this client software installed on it without the IT masterminds noticing? Hmm. Okay. Scratch those.

Who lugs their home desktop tower to the game table? Exactly. Scratch those.

Now. Who is going to be bringing their home laptop to the game table?

Please remember that the key goal of D&DI is not to bring laptops to the game table. It is to allow players that are not able to get together around the same gaming table to still play D&D, using the internet as their gaming table with the D&D game table application...

Having more laptops on your home game table is certainly a possible consequence of that D&DI initiative, but it is not our core drive for the D&DI project.

Apple has 17.6% of the retail laptop market right now. And growing twice to three time faster the Windows laptops, at this time next year Apple could have 20% of the retail market. Of the younger demographic, you know, the age range D&D targets to like college students, Apple is even larger than that. If you exclude all the toy laptops under $1,000 which likely won't be able to run Game Table due to the requirements, Apple has an even larger share of the market of those laptops.

Of the target demographic, using non-corporate locked-down laptops powerful enough to run Game Table, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Apple has nearly a 30%–40%+ market share. Nothing to sneeze at when you write software.

It's a matter of looking at what market you expect to be at the game table. Laptops primarily, powerful enough to run Game Table, and a younger demographic at that.

We are aware of the trends in this area, and as I mentioned earlier we are looking if some of our D&DI applications can be used with the more recent intel based mac systems, while keeping in mind our delivery goals and timeline. We also have made our decisions regarding serving the PC platform first based on factual market research data, not estimated data. A lot of our future steps will depend on the success of the first steps.

WotC_DM wrote:

We also have made our decisions regarding serving the PC platform first based on factual market research data, not estimated data.

Well... it seems there's factual... and then there's FACTUAL...


The PC pr machine tells you that the Mac community only accounts for 6%. But they also lump in corporate systems and things like cash registers. I don't know anyone who uses a cash register in their home. So I don't think many people will be playing games on them.

A more acurate demographic would be established if the home community were actually polled.

Also, it seems to me that a stronger business plan DOES take into account future market trends. Assesing where you'll be next year, when your product comes out, but basing your decisions only on what currently is, or was, seems short sighted.

At any rate... thanks getting involved with the discussion! It's nice to know that the Mac community is being listened to, even if we don't care for the answers.

Greath wrote:

Well... it seems there's factual... and then there's FACTUAL...


The PC pr machine tells you that the Mac community only accounts for 6%. But they also lump in corporate systems and things like cash registers. I don't know anyone who uses a cash register in their home. So I don't think many people will be playing games on them.

A more acurate demographic would be established if the home community were actually polled.

Also, it seems to me that a stronger business plan DOES take into account future market trends. Assesing where you'll be next year, when your product comes out, but basing your decisions only on what currently is, or was, seems short sighted.

At any rate... thanks getting involved with the discussion! It's nice to know that the Mac community is being listened to, even if we don't care for the answers.

Hey, I did not say we were using generic Market Research data... We have our own market research department at Wizards...

WotC_DM wrote:

Hey, I did not say we were using generic Market Research data... We have our own market research department at Wizards...

Write to Mac, port to Windows. It'll save you a lot of grief.

PC... Mac... Linux... this is the same argument that has been raging for fifteen years and we still don't have decent games support on the Mac or Linux (including at the present Never Winter Nights II and D&DOnline). Hasn't slowed sales of games any, doubt it will slow Insider use any.

WotC_DM wrote:

We are aware of the trends in this area, and as I mentioned earlier we are looking if some of our D&DI applications can be used with the more recent intel based mac systems, while keeping in mind our delivery goals and timeline. We also have made our decisions regarding serving the PC platform first based on factual market research data, not estimated data. A lot of our future steps will depend on the success of the first steps.

Please at least say you're looking at TransGaming's Cider product -- that would seem to be the quickest, easiest way for you guys to bring it to the Intel-based Macs. At least, give 'em a shout, ya know?

Note -- I don't even own an Intel Mac (yet), and this would be an acceptable level of porting for me. Not ideal, of course, but I ain't expecting ideal.

I have a question about it:Is there any free test for DnD Insider,or will be a free test?

I just want to identify myself as someone who would be very interested in using, and willing to pay to use, this software if, and only if, it will run on my Macintosh systems. They are both new-ish and Intel based. I am not interested if I would have to run them under Windows, not just because of the ridiculous cost of windows, but due to its many problems and vulnerabilities, combined with the fact that by the time I finish with it at work (where we finally upgraded to XP thanks to Microsoft pulling the plug on 2000, and probably won't see Vista for another 10 years (although I have tried Vista, and was underwhelmed)) I refuse to spend any dollars or any of my valuable gaming time in Windows.

Ultimately the message that the folks at WoTC need to hear from all of us with Macs is that a Mac version is the only way to get money from us that we would otherwise be willing, possibly even happy, to part with if it would let us game with our friends who have moved far away over the years. (BTW folks, you are also loosing some money from me by not having Macintosh Magic The Gathering Online available as well.)

Elkor wrote:

I have a question about it:Is there any free test for DnD Insider,or will be a free test?

Well theoretically we are getting a free preview right now of the web content. At D&D Experience they talked about a 10 day trial. Likely it will be like the AOL trial where you sign up with your CCard and if you cancel within 10 days you don't get charged.

I am mac user who will quite likely not have accesses to a pc soon.  This coming November I may need to drop my subscription.  It's to bad really, I like 4e but it's geared to work hand in hand with D&DI. Oh well Amazing Engine it is!  Wish you guys the best.

Bryan Davidson