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5 years ago ::
May 22, 2008 - 9:25AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2004
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And don't forget, with opponents easier to run there is a greater chance you'll have opponents in different initiative spots.
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5 years ago ::
May 22, 2008 - 10:23AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2008
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This will all depend on the exact specifics of delay.
It really does not make sense that you can delay to avoid taking an ongoing damage effect. It also would be odd if you could extend the duration of your buffs on others, simply by delaying. It doesn't make mechanical sense or simulational sense. I guess we will find out.
Also, there certainly IS a drawback to using power attack with your daily power. You are going to miss more often. Not sure why the whole "you get to try it again" would change the fact that you do NOT want to miss.
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5 years ago ::
May 22, 2008 - 11:00AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2004
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Holding your Action
Further to this is the question of initiative order and holding your action.
In the rules, an example is given of monsters that delay their action which results in their iniative being one less then ally that they delayed their action to help.
Many things in 4e are based upon the rule that they last until the end of your next turn.
If we put these two rules together then what do we get?
If a Cleric and Rogue were on the same team and the Cleric had an iniative of say 12 and the Rogue had an iniative of say 10.
The Cleric casts Daunting Light on a target which the Cleric designates the Rogue as receiving the Combat Advantage benefit. This is on iniative 12.
The Rogue acts on their iniative of 10 to get Sneak Attack damage.
Next turn the Cleric chooses to delay their iniative to after the rogue goes.
The Rogue goes on iniative 10 in the new turn and gets a second chance to use combat advantage to give additional Sneak Attack damage on the target.
The cleric now take their new turn in the iniative order at 9 which will end the combat advantage at the end of their turn.
By having the cleric delaying initiative, the rules as written would allow the rogue to benefit twice from the combat advantage.
Another trick in delaying iniative is that many things like ongoing damage occur at the start of your turn. If your iniative order would come before someone that might be able to use the heal skill to help you break the effect or offer another benefit then delaying your initiative order allows you to delay the damage.
This can avoid a loss of a turn or being knocked unconsious before you can have one of your party members step in to help you.
I don't think this works. I dont recall the exact thread, but over on ENWorld one of the folks from WOTC quoted a excerpt from the PHB which explicitly removed cheese exploits regarding delaying (IIRC correctly is was about circumventing saving throws but applied to all conditions...)
Edit: I believe a players turn was "stuff/conditions happen" and only *then* you could elect to delay.
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5 years ago ::
May 22, 2008 - 11:04AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Apr 19, 2008
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I don't think this works. I dont recall the exact thread, but over on ENWorld one of the folks from WOTC quoted a excerpt from the PHB which explicitly removed cheese exploits regarding delaying (IIRC correctly is was about circumventing saving throws but applied to all conditions...)
Edit: I believe a players turn was "stuff/conditions happen" and only *then* you could elect to delay.
In theory, this could still allow a RAW reading to exploit the duration of a buff that lasts until the end of a character's next turn. We'll have to wait for the final text. Thank you for the news though. I find it encouraging.
D&D rules were never meant to exist without the presence of a DM. RAW is a lie.
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5 years ago ::
May 23, 2008 - 8:47PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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the negative response to this is acting like this tactic can get spammed... which is ridiculus if we're talkig about encounter powers.. and even if tey are at will powers, it can only be done every 3rd round... because said cleric would have to get back in front of the rogue's initiatuve to do it.
hardly game breaking, since if init works like 3.x, the cleric would be bloing a round to move up in initiative again anyway.
second point regarding this:
I almost got carried away for a second... SO regarding conditions and ongoing damage, it would make sese in a very "magic th gathering" sort of way for these things to rgister at beginning of action.. which would be reasonable as before you decide to delay. It takes care of all the "ookkeeping" regarding "other peopole" before doing what YOU are going to do for the round. it's just good struture. After taking yer damage, or making yer save, or whatever, if you still function, then you can decide to let the roue benefit from yor buff a little it longer. THAT seems balanced.
In the above eample of pc1 with init 15 and pc2 with init 13; where pc1 will die without pc2's help... if npc1 caused pc1 to have a recurring damage effect, I thought the damage would occur again on npc1's turn. pc1 could otentially halt it during pc1's init. Am I right? because if that is the case, then pc2 would still have a chance to save pc1 before next round if pc1 doesn't make the save.
Or am I misunderstanding?
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5 years ago ::
May 23, 2008 - 9:11PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2007
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I see Power Attack being really vicious for Paladins with Valiant Strike. He'd use it against the non-minion(s) in the crowd when surrounded.
I suspect Power Attack gives you your STR modifier (again) to damage. So your net result is adding 2xSTR mod to damage instead of just 1xSTR.
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